Unfair to people who bought it at the old price?
Its called a market.
PC games go down in price. (and have sales)
Board games go down in price (and have sales)
New cars do deals
Even perishables vary in price.

GW doesn't like changing the RRP because their raw materials vary so much in price. Its nothing to do with fairness for the customer.

Has anyone looked at the detailed sheets about turnover and profits for GW? The company has grown year on year for the last 5 years. Just last year they had a profit increase of £5million.

So although I am also a great supporter of lowering the prices, these Guys are looking at the big picture, and right now they keep growing and getting more money. What would you do? Bottom line in business will always win, and at the moment the method they are using now is working. Even though I wish things were cheaper, while ever people are buying the stuff, the stuff will not get cheaper.

Profits are up but sales were down if I remember rightly.

That's because they are probably focusing on short term players and gains. Bursts of sales for getting into the game or when a new codex shifts what models are most powerful (or now nerfed) or such. Not so much on long term army growth

I think one telling visual is just looking at the tables at our LGS. The LotR players (and the FoW and BlackPowder players I might add) generally are playing with armies 90% painted and based. In fact, many of us won't play something unless it's completely done up except when trying something new out. But then I look over to the WH / 40K tables and I'm often surprised to see even 25% of many of those armies painted. Often players will have entire armies of just glued together grey plastic. There are some exceptions with brilliant paint jobs but I'm sure more than half of the players fall in the "just get it on the table" camp.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I said i'd like to see a price drop. I didn't say i expected one.

I agree they won't change their spots.

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I think a drug habbit would be cheaper...

I play both 40K and LotR, but I prefer LotR. I'm actually in the camp of "don't care about painting them" when it comes to 40K, but not when it comes to LotR. I have been slowly painting my 40K models, but for some reason, I don't care as much about getting them painted up as my LotR models, almost all of whom are painted up.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

I used to like 40K a lot, but then every edition started introducing new types of units that were must-have and expensive. They got me with tanks (although I've since sold most of mine off) but they lost me with $75 100-point flyers that you need or you'll lose.

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Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

Fortunately none of the guys I play with use flyers, the price is a bit obscene, we mostly have just infantry and a few tanks (though one guy plays Imperial Guard and has 3 Leman Russ'). I like the idea of flyers, but I feel like they should stay in their own seperate realm.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

That's a Devlan Mud statement. You don't need flyers to win at all. Just a good sound set of strategies and tactics.
I've seen plenty of bad players use their flyers terribly too; flyer =/= auto win.

Of course fancy new stuff gets released, and of course it gets a big focus- this is how you sell things. GW can't just release new versions of the same models constantly, they'd never sell.
But you never ever need to get these things if you don't want them. And none of them are a requirement to playing or winning.

Seriously, I hope that someone from GW will realise one day, that many people would give 30 € to buy products worth 15 € (+15 € for GW) than give once a year 30 € to buy something worth 5 €. Honestly, I believe they are thinking only short-term without thinking at all the cost for a new player to join the game and give them his nice money.

How many of you bought p.e. 12 Hunter Orcs for 30 € . I bet that the sales would be doubled if they cost 20 €.

Just a browse on e-bay and similar sites would give them a hint that every day more and more people choose to trade online rather than buy the original minis.

Yet people will continue to pay if they want to play with GW products. After all the very same sculptors (The Twins) to a great historical range of figures for a fraction of the price. The Crusader range is okay for Rohan and their enemies make fine Easterlings. Moreover, if you are up for some converting, the plastic War of the Roses troops are a good base for Gondor - £18.00 for 40 plastic figures anybody...

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product ... ts_id=2471

Just saying

Anyway, back to the warband of metal Uruk-hai investing my model tray...

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http://jannersjaunt.blogspot.dk

That may be fair, but it's not what GW's own staff told me. The last time I went in to get something was like a year ago or more. They highly recommended that I pick up Bommers, Gunships and Valkyries or I'd be "left behind." I realize that was probably just spin, but it certainly didn't work.

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Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

Let's be honest here, folks: supporting veterans doesn't work.

I have been a largely-inactive player of 40k and WHFB (and getting into LotR now) for years. I'll use my Orks as an example here, because I find it most fitting.

I've been playing Orks since 3rd Edition reared its ugly, misshapen and ill-advised head, forever tainting what used to be a pretty damned awesome wargame (not that I'm biased towards Second or anything).

By the time I had really got going with my Orks in Third, Codex: Armageddon was out and I leaped about the Speed Freeks bus. Or trukk. Whatever. Now, keep in mind I had a box or two of Gorkamorka models, so basically when I decided to collect my Ork army, I needed to buy a handful of Boyz and a lot of Burnas. Ebay provided here--lots of people were getting rid of assembled, but unpainted models and I was happy for the discount.

Any vehicles I needed, I was able to convert or purchase from a reseller at a significant price reduction. My total investment was minimal.

Then came the glory of the 4th Edition Codex and its well-meaning attempt to bring some of the 2nd Edition fun back to the game (I'm talking about Orks here, people). And the oh-so-pretty new Warbikers.

I had the codex on my computer weeks before it was released in store. Warbikers were quickly found on eBay for less than I could find at an online retailer. Again, minimal investment because the core was there and the core needed very little changing.

I think the only model I have actually purchased for my Orks, at full MSRP, from a "GW" entity is the Forgeworld Biker Warboss.

Okay, that was a rather rambling story. I blame too much How I Met Your Mother.

The point I'm getting at here is that an informed veteran is one of the worst customers for GW to have. We know where to get our models for less than GW, oftentimes depriving GW of a sale altogether. We only buy books out of well-meaning loyalty or a moral distaste for IP theft. Our total expenditure is miniscule when one draws it out over the course of our time involved with the games.

And yet, we keep showing up. We come to tournaments. We come to open gaming nights. We sit in a chair and take up half a table that could be used for someone who is going to purchase more than a drink from the vending machine and maybe impulse-buy a model (to the mocking derision of our peers, no doubt). But we keep showing up.

Now, tell me, from a business perspective, why would you want to devote so much time and money to a largely non-producing segment of your customers? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to focus on segments that actually provide the company with a solid form a revenue, even if there is no real potential for "growth?"

And isn't that "growth," in and of itself, a bad thing? Customer retention, in terms of this type of company, means more tables taken up by "customers" who aren't buying anything.

Interesting reading JPRoth1980, bit i differ to you and so might other Veterans, in that i still buy a lot of the GW range, much more than some one whos is having to rely on there parents to purchase.

The oldest rule in business is to look after your existing customers as new ones are so much harder to get.

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Harfoots-The first of the Hobbit people to cross over the Misty Mountains and enter Eriador.

@JPRoth1980
That may be true of many older "Veterans" but its certainly NOT true of me.

I'm 21 now. I started playing LOTR SBG at the age of ~ 12. Being a Hobbyist for ~10 years, I suppose I qualify as a "Veteran" now. Later I also started 40K with the release of 5th Ed (2008?).

In most of those 10 years, I ALWAYS bought direct from GW. Most of my purchases were on impulse. All the money I 'earned' myself (whether through odd jobs, pocket money, birthdays and xmas etc) I dumped into my Hobby. Which was 100% GW.

It wasn't till I went to Uni and joined an independent Gaming Club that I was exposed to miniatures and games by companies other than GW. And even then, I didn't stray from GW, until they introduced Finecast and started aggressively cost-cutting. (downsizing the model counts of plastic boxes etc).

It was a combination of

-HIGH prices,
-declining Quality (the finecast saga),
-the descent of White Dwarf from the Ultimate monthly Hobbyist's Tome into the glorified sales catalogue of today,
-the purge of all creativity from GW (no more examples and WD lessons on how to scratch build terrain and convert models, replaced with expensive unoriginal and mass produced plastic terrain kits);
-and my realisation that there were alterative games and miniatures of great quality out there that wouldn't rip me off;

that finally drove me away from GW.

I'm now seriously considering proxying entire armies using non-GW models (Anglo Saxons as Rohirrim/custom rules) and I've told GW staff of my intentions.

My point is, even as a Veteran I would STILL be a profitable direct customer of GW, if I thought I was getting value for money. I do not, as a direct consequence of GW policies, so I now take my money elsewhere.

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My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/

The GW sales model is both brilliant and flawed.

They maintain very costly staff numbers and shops when they could simply supply to existing model/games outlets or the internet. This would reduce costs (and prices).

But who would buy the stuff. They would have no new customers and would have to rely on an ever diminishing number of collectors.

I would guess a lot of OR members first came to gaming via GW and GW made it so easy. (staff, shops, demonstrations in schools, free gamming tables in store etc). They also made it easy for mum, dad, grandparents, uncles and aunts to buy presents for little Jonny. Jonny collects abc, what can I buy in my price bracket.

These new customers are the lifeblood of GW sales and there is no doubt they have got this right.

Where they go badly wrong is in keeping those customers who stay with the hobby after the first couple of years. These customers desert GW and go either with other manufacturers or used kit of ebay.

GW need to keep these people on board and keep them buying new kit. They have no choice. Sales growth so far this year is poor. Only 5% (or so) in UK, stagnant in Australia. For a manufacturer this is almost a disaster.

Is this the reason for the departure of Mark Wells?

GW urgently need to find a way to keep existing collectors buying. No amount of new models will do this. Any number of manufacturers make cool minis.

They need a way to recognise long term modellers and collectors and recognise this in the pricing structure.

Bit of a ramble, but there you go.

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"Naur an edraith ammen!", no thanks, we have central heating.

I'm sure this has been said several times before but some of the leading obstacles for any company is the fact the world is collapsing economically. Bloated governments with heavy taxes to fund agencies that aren't needed and deprive investors of money that they would use to expand their companies, no faith in the money of the 1st (well I guess there is no first world nation anymore unless you lower the bar on that one) and second world currencies has further stopped investors from spending their money. Government leader ship (my country has become guilty of this one to the extreme) who lack an understanding of economics has inflated the money by out of control printing of currency with nothing to back up its value. In addition to all of this we have increased government regulations in most of the developed world that increases the cost of the materials for the manufacturing of goods is driving prices up.

All these things have lead to a world wide depression... er sorry that word is taboo now in the US, recession, with huge amounts of unemployment or in the cases of many I know pay cuts.

I can understand why GW is doing what it's doing but I don't see it as being the lifeline it needs and if nothing improves in the near future I don't think they will survive with their current model. More people will lose their free income and stop buying like many have already in order to support their families, others will turn to cheaper games. Those who can bank roll GW prices will buy directly from them but that number will continue to decrease as things stand in the world right now. New players that might have gotten into it will look at the prices and not knowing anything about the different systems will pick on that will be cheaper with just as nice models and buy those.

Ultimately as the numbers of supporters drop the game out of necessity and no new infusion of customers do to prices the bottom will drop out and GW will ultimately go bankrupt. I hope that the world leaders get their heads on straight but I think that they have taken books like Atlas Shrugged and 1984 as guide books of how to run the worlds instead of the warnings they were written to be.

GW sets their policy to how the government and economy forces them in an attempt to survive in these bad times.

Your entire story was well-written and precisely illustrates why GW sees no point in catering to veterans.

What drives sales, more than anything else, is the clueless newbie. The clueless newbie is likely go buy big and buy in mistake. They are likely to buy into the hype and drink all the Kool-Aid. A $30 box here and there does not keep the electricity on, after all.

GW wants the kid who brings his parents in to drop $200 on a bunch of Space Marines and is never seen from again. They want them so bad it hurts. And it makes perfect sense--in any sort of collectibles market, retention is a BAD thing.

I'll use an overly extended metaphor to try to explain. Let's say you have a small "neighborhood" grocery store. Unfortunately, you can't (or won't, it really doesn't matter here) compete with the national chains in terms of price, so you offer your customers a few extras--free cooking classes and a number of ranges and ovens that they can use in a back room.

This continues for, say, ten years. But you've noticed that, as time goes by, more and more "vets" are buying less from you, but spending an awful lot of time in the free kitchen. A lot of them don't even buy from you any longer, but instead bring in ingredients they purchased outside the store. You may have potential customers getting scared off by the veterans giving them unsolicited recipe advice even.

How much of that are you going to take before you start kicking people out?

Like I said, overly extended, but here's the point: veterans, as a group, take up far more floor space than newbies and buy far less. By focusing on the new player, GW is narrowing their target demographic to the ones that actually drive the business instead of trying to please an element that is nowhere near as profitable. It's sound business sense.

^ All good points, but as Curufinwe says, that's a dangerous game to play. If prices go up, but veteran supporters go down, ultimately you are left with nothing. Even clueless newbies have some brains (I was one of them), but they don't hold on forever. GWs competitors often make minis of equal or greater quality, and at better prices. If GW are really that desperate for new blood but no so keen on retaining it, they're gonna end up living pay cheque to pay cheque (albeit on an international scale). Surly it is good and healthy for GW to retain the interest (and the wallets) of the more long term customers like us, whilst soaking up the cash and attention of mindless newbies. I'm no business man, but I imagine that it would be ideal to make the very most of all groups, so going full out on one target demographic with a diminishing back-up is risky to say the least.

But hey, rant finished- aren't we all going a bit off topic?

Wrong, IMHO, i take up no GW floor space, well only for a few minutes when i pop into my local branch to buy something. I do not use any GW premises to play. So as a Veteran how can i not be wanted.

(Even though i feel i am not )

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Harfoots-The first of the Hobbit people to cross over the Misty Mountains and enter Eriador.