The One Ring
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By the Book - new wiki
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=20749		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  whafrog [ Tue May 10, 2011 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  By the Book - new wiki
Hi, if anyone is interested, I've posted everything I've done for my "By the Book" project on a wiki:

http://lotr-bythebook.wikispaces.com/

The purpose of this is to revamp profiles to better reflect the book than the movies. It is *far* from complete, but there is a lot done. Feel free to comment, suggest profiles, etc. Cheers!
Author:  General Elessar [ Tue May 10, 2011 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
It's very interesting, and seems to present Tolkien's Middle Earth very well. Do you find it more enjoyable?
Author:  whafrog [ Tue May 10, 2011 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
In all honesty I get little enough time to play even the normal game. The orcs are fun (cowardly and cunning rules), and I think Rohan is more playable, but I'm sure it could all benefit from some serious play testing. Anybody who wants to can sign up for input.
Author:  The Horde Lord [ Wed May 11, 2011 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
I haven't read through it all but it looks brilliant. I will definitly comment on theis later but now it's late at night.
Author:  The Horde Lord [ Thu May 12, 2011 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
Ok, I have read thru the wiki and I must say i am very impressed. However, I am not sure I like that half the good warriors have strength 4. I don't like how half the evil ones have it now but there must be other ways to make people powerful without makeing (as I said) half the guys strength 4.
Author:  valpas [ Thu May 12, 2011 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
I had time to check out only a few pages but my general feeling is that I like what you have done. There are some things I have thought myself to take as house rules. I play so rarely that it will probably take a long time before I can provide any comments based on actual gaming, but I definitely want to try out some of the profiles and rules.

-- Pasi
Author:  whafrog [ Thu May 12, 2011 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
The Horde Lord wrote:
Ok, I have read thru the wiki and I must say i am very impressed.


Thanks, if you want an invite to make comments there, pm me with an email address.

Quote:
However, I am not sure I like that half the good warriors have strength 4. I don't like how half the evil ones have it now but there must be other ways to make people powerful without makeing (as I said) half the guys strength 4.


Certainly half the profiles, but I don't know about half the warriors. Except for Numenor, the mainstay of both Gondor and Rohan would be Gondor warriors (WoMT equivalents) or WoR/RoR, both of which are still S3. Perhaps some costs need adjusting to prevent "elite abuse"...if you have any ideas about that let me know. I haven't got to the fallen realms yet, but I had planned to keep many of the existing profiles at S4 (Mahud, etc). Certainly the "Black Numenorians" would be on par with some of Gondor's ex-Numenorians. The important thing for me was to make Gondor less pathetic, and orcs more so :)
Author:  General Elessar [ Thu May 12, 2011 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
whafrog wrote:
The important thing for me was to make Gondor less pathetic, and orcs more so :)


Interesting you should say that; I can't recall a quote from the books suggesting that the combat skills of an Orc were inferior to a man's.
Author:  whafrog [ Thu May 12, 2011 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
General Elessar wrote:
Interesting you should say that; I can't recall a quote from the books suggesting that the combat skills of an Orc were inferior to a man's.


But the Men were always vastly outnumbered, yet overcame. Even the hobbits held their own in Moria. It's implied throughout the tale.
Author:  The Horde Lord [ Thu May 12, 2011 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
If you have read Unfinished tales (or whatever it is called) you will actually be able to read a sentence going something like this: "For every man that was killed, they slew five orcs, but the orcs outnumbered them ten to one." This was numenorians of course, but you get the idea.
Author:  General Elessar [ Thu May 12, 2011 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
whafrog wrote:
General Elessar wrote:
Interesting you should say that; I can't recall a quote from the books suggesting that the combat skills of an Orc were inferior to a man's.


But the Men were always vastly outnumbered, yet overcame. Even the hobbits held their own in Moria. It's implied throughout the tale.


Good point. But I still don't like the idea that Orcs were pathetic fighters. The only reason Sauron bred them was to fight, so they can't have been that bad.
Author:  The Horde Lord [ Thu May 12, 2011 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
General Elessar wrote:
whafrog wrote:
General Elessar wrote:
Interesting you should say that; I can't recall a quote from the books suggesting that the combat skills of an Orc were inferior to a man's.


But the Men were always vastly outnumbered, yet overcame. Even the hobbits held their own in Moria. It's implied throughout the tale.


Good point. But I still don't like the idea that Orcs were pathetic fighters. The only reason Sauron bred them was to fight, so they can't have been that bad.


Sauron didn't breed the orcs, Morgoth did, Sauron just inherited an army. Also, there is such a thing called numbers, which can be far more important then the skills of each individual in your army. Should Stalin not have used Russian soldiers during WW2 considering they were Devlan Mud compared to the Germans? Should Hitler not have added the Italians and Romanians to his army since they were Devlan Mud. My point is, two or three orcs still kick WoMT butt, that's why they need to isolate targets or surround the entire enemy army. If the shieldwall/phalanks breaks, the orcs win.
Author:  General Elessar [ Thu May 12, 2011 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
The Horde Lord wrote:
Sauron didn't breed the orcs, Morgoth did, Sauron just inherited an army.


I disagree. Although I'm not certain on this, I think the majority of Morgoth's Orcs were killed in that last battle of the Simarillion; Sauron probably recruited the "left-overs". As for Sauron breeding Orcs, he definitely did. There are numerous quotes from Gandalf, Aragorn, etc. saying something along the lines of "Sauron is breeding an army".

But never mind who bred the Orcs, this about their combat ability. It doesn't make sense to me that someone like Sauron would entertain the idea of ruling the world with an army of, however numerous, pathetic fighters. One thing we should be able to agree on is that Orcs were very vicious, and probably quite fierce. Such a combination makes a decent soldier.
Author:  whafrog [ Thu May 12, 2011 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
Quote:
It doesn't make sense to me that someone like Sauron would entertain the idea of ruling the world with an army of, however numerous, pathetic fighters.


It made sense to Sauron :) No, they weren't pathetic, they just couldn't match. 1:1 they matched a hobbit. They were generally smaller, for one thing, that is well accounted for, even if only with Gimli's comment at Helm's Deep: he avoided the Dunlendings, they were too big for him, but had no fear of the orcs.

Sauron certainly had his "elites" though, I hope they've been well-represented (so far).

As a whole I agree they were vicious, that's why I gave them all the backstabber rule. But they were also cowardly and fearful on their own...that fear was their legacy, one of their defining traits.
Author:  BlackReaper [ Fri May 13, 2011 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
The way I always thought of the orcs was that there were the weak and not-very-skilled-in-combat orcs who were cowardly and then there were the cunning,vicious,strong,and good-at-combat orcs.Thats not even bringing in the Moranian orcs,goblins,or Uruk-Hai.Pretty much the way Tolkien wrote the books (not just the trilogy I mean) he made it so that way it would be interpreted differently for everyone.Anyhoo,I hope this doesn't turn into a LotR Fan-debate that seems to happen on a lot of forums.--Nate--
Author:  whafrog [ Fri May 13, 2011 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
Ultimately everyone's vision will be different and no one will be completely satisfied :) If I have anything terribly wrong I'm willing to be convinced by relevant passages in the books. As far as that goes, it seems to me that the passages that describe orcs as big, powerful or terrifying are from the point of view of the Hobbits. Gimli wasn't intimidated, and Boromir held off a small horde for a while. If Boromir had had a couple other Gondor warriors with him, the Hobbits probably would never have been taken. Eomer wiped out the Uruks carrying the Hobbits at about an 8:1 ratio. Certainly elite orcs existed (looking forward to seeing the Bodyguard of Bolg in the Hobbit movie), and the uruk-hai were a cut above.
Author:  Easterling [ Sat May 14, 2011 6:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
I like some of these rules although...:

I don't see why Gondor goes up to F4? :?
Orcs go down to F2 so I don't see the reason for this...

Are you going to make some changes to Uruk-Hai(F4 makes no sense...)?

Rohan gets lances 8) but I think they need heavy armour. :)

Lastly I think Noldor Elves get overpowered S4? I don't remember them being any stronger than men.
Also F6 is making the average soldier being able to stand against (or beat) a Nazgul.

It's good to see someone changing some of these things because I don't think GW did a good job on many of the stats giving every army nearly some extra powerful thing that is unnecessary.

Just my opinion :-D
Author:  whafrog [ Sat May 14, 2011 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
Easterling wrote:
I don't see why Gondor goes up to F4? :?


Because they were better than the rest of Men

Quote:
Orcs go down to F2 so I don't see the reason for this...


Because they were worse than Men

Quote:
Are you going to make some changes to Uruk-Hai(F4 makes no sense...)?


Yes, just haven't got to it yet

Quote:
Lastly I think Noldor Elves get overpowered S4? I don't remember them being any stronger than men.


I'm basing that on some stuff in the Silmarillion...the Noldor exceeded Men in every way, including physical stature.

Quote:
Also F6 is making the average soldier being able to stand against (or beat) a Nazgul


I wouldn't call them average. You couldn't take more than a couple in an army, they're too expensive for that.
Author:  Old Chestnut [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
Quote:
One note: it is unlikely Tolkien would have agreed with the concept of Dwarf Rangers, these profiles should not be used.

I don't strongly disagree. Something needs to be done for Dwarf adventures or prospectors.You have already mentioned the Hobbit. I would suggest a standard stat line with options.
How do you feel about crossbows?

http://larsen-family.us/~1066/index.html
I find the above link very interesting. Although written for another game, I find the articles on historical equivalents insightful.

Quote:
Dwarven armies of anywhere and time
Use Vikings without the bow. (If you must, substitute crossbow: although I think the Professor would grimace at the presence of crossbows in Middle-earth: too much like infernal machinery! He said that he always wanted to be a skilled archer, a dream never realized in his lifetime; so I cannot imagine him settling with any satisfaction for skill with a device/crossbow.) All missile fire is hand missile. Anglo-Saxon Armies 1014 to 1066 work too. Dwarves can trot indefinitely and all morale that is “D” class is for performance tests only and not morale for casualties or seeing friendlies run – i.e. no rout checks at less than “C” class. 10% of Dwarves can fight like berserkers


quote from above site
Author:  Elros of Numenor [ Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: By the Book - new wiki
I had a quick look and it looks good. I've also joined :) I'm interested in helping, whether playtesting or suggesting changes, whatever.

I like how you've made rohan less wimpy, for example allowing the horses to defend themselves 8) and also not making elves better at riding horses :D. Grimbold looks like a lot of fun to play.
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