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Gothmog, Orc or Not?
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21072		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Gothmog, Orc or Not?
This is only for those who've read the books. I know Jackson depicts him as an Orc, but do you think that is right? Or should he be a Ringwraith, Black Numenorean, Uruk-hai, Olog-hai, Southron, Easterling, Variag or some other being? Is he even male?

I'm just interested in everyone eles' thoughts as he's my favourite character even though he's only in one line in the book.
Author:  Hilbert [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
Ok about Uruk-hai but the other escapes fantasy...Especially the ringwraith...
He is an orc(i don't know exactly what orc) but for sure he is male....
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
Difficult to say since there really isn't any information. My first guess would be ringwraith as they are Sauron's greatest servants and it makes sense that the 2nd in command of the leader of the ringwraiths would be one of the other wraiths. However, given their powers and abilities I could see an argument that the Nazgul would have been kept outside the "normal" chain of command. Given that, my 2nd guess would be a black numenorean since they are actually loyal to Sauron instead of foreign vassal troops or mercenaries (or dupes) like the other humans in his service. Some other monstrous creature is possible, but without evidence to support it that seems like a pointless leap to make.

Honestly, some form of orc would be my last choice. The way orcs are presented in LotR just doesn't allow them to work conceptually as a leader of a well organized, semi-professional army.

That said, PJ's take on an orc Gothmog is pretty awesome and I think fairly believable so I'm cool with it.
Author:  Erunion [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
I think the footnote to the Gothmog entry on Encyclopedia of Arda sums it up pretty well.

Click here!
Author:  General Elessar [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
ForgottenLore has put it very well, and I am in complete agreement; either a Nazgul or a Black Numenorean (simliar to the Mouth of Sauron).
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
Thankyou all for your comments, I was of the opinion that he was either a Black Numenorean or a Nazgul, its just his name is very urukish, orcish or trollish.
Author:  General Elessar [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
Actually, he was probably named after Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
Yes but why would a human be named after the lord of the Balrogs?
Author:  Hilbert [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
caus ehe was to terrible to be human...
But for the Nazul option I don't think so :P
Author:  General Elessar [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Yes but why would a human be named after the lord of the Balrogs?


I didn't suggest that, I was just saying that the name actually isn't "Orc-ish".
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
No, but its more orcish than mannish, I think.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Yes but why would a human be named after the lord of the Balrogs?


Why wouldn't he be? We're talking about a race of men that began worshiping Sauron and are willing servants. Why wouldn't they choose to glorify big names from the first age? Not inconceivable that he choose the name after achieving a position of power in Sauron's armies.
Author:  Morgoths_crown [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
Same reason someone would call a man who had the attributes of a bear and a wolf Beowulf. Think about it, what better name than that of a fearsome Balrog to show what type of warrior you are! Don't forget, Grond was Morgoth's hammer and also the name of the battering ram used in the siege of Gondor. Why? Because it invokes evil.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
You've convinced me. Now I'm wondering if I should use a Black Numenorean mini to represent him.
Author:  Morgoths_crown [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
Yep, perfectly reasonable to represent him as a Black Numenorean.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
I could do with a slight conversio though. I'd have to telly my opponant or they might think its tMoS or TDM
Author:  fracas [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
he should be a black numenorean
but the rules for him is as an orc.
sure you can use a black numenorean model as a count as
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
That's what I intend to do.
Author:  Ritcherd [ Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
Can anyone quote from the book? I'm interested in where he was mentioned
Author:  General Elessar [ Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gothmog, Orc or Not?
Ritcherd wrote:
Can anyone quote from the book? I'm interested in where he was mentioned


"He [the Witchking] now was destroyed; but Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul had flung them [the Haradrim] into the fray[.]" - the Battle of Pelennor Fields

This is the one and only time Gothmog is mentioned in the books.
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