I mean the first time, when Isildur strikes him and he loses a finger... and dies. I have read the books throughly and never understood why Sauron is defeated like that in the movie! Is it because he his completely dependent on the ring at that point?

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I'm pretty sure that in order to create a controlling ring, Sauron had to put the best part of his power into forging it and as such, when it was separated from him, his essence/spirit effectively was removed from his mortal form, which at that point was effectively a carrier being.

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Yes Thermo is basically correct here. The description in the film is good. He poured all his fury, his malice and his will to dominate all life into the ring. So in other words Sauron and the ring became one. So in a way he put his entire soul into it. He could then control all the other rings in middle earth with this one master ring. But when he lost that source of power he lost all his physical being. He was not destroyed but reduced. It then took thousands of years for his spirit to endure.

And that Sauron is a big flaming eye is made up by the film makers.
He did regain his physical form.

I think they did it because he can be the big eye.
I think it is in the extended edition, but correct me if I'm wrong, that Gandalf says that Sauron will come out when Minas Tirith has fallen.

I don't think that the flaming eye was supposed to be Sauron, at least not directly. It represented him in the movies and it was also in the books so wasn't made up by the film makers even though they expanded on the idea. I think it was some kind of sorcery or spell that enabled him to conjure up the great eye, but it remains a bit of a mystery. He did have a physical form but would not come out of the dark tower unless victory was inevitable. At least that is how I understand it.

Do you have a quote for that? Because I'm pretty sure he couldn't. His spirit took 2500 years to recover and my understanding was he could only retake physical form if he got the Ring back.

I could be wrong but I was thinking Gil-galad had actually already killed him in the battle before The ring was cut off and that only the ring kept him alive at that point

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No, Sauron killed Gil-galad.

Smeagol did say he was tortured by "him" and he was talking about a hand with 4 fingers. I don't have an exact quote, I will search for it.

Spoilers concerning the Hobbit


I skimmed through unfinished tales and it only said that Smeagol was tormented and questioned.

I haven't finished history of middle earth yet, so I don't know if it says anything about it in there.

But in the letters to Tolkien, letter 246 says, and I quote:
"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than
human stature, but not gigantic."

This is a about Aragorn watching in the Palantir.
The form that is mentioned is Sauron.
But what is interesting it literally says that he has a body.

I think that if he did, which is always unclear in the books, then his form would be similar to that of the Ringwraiths without him regaining the ring. He did not feel strong enough to leave Barad-dur.

As for Gollum mention ing the 4 fingers on a black hand he could simply be making reference to the fact that Sauron had his ring finger cut off, but I could be wrong on that one. I have heard and read somewhere that it was Grishnakh the orc who led the torture of Gollum and that is why he was searching Merry and Pippin for the Ring.

Sauron's physical form will always be a mystery and Tolkien never fully described what he looked like, making him an even more mysterious and menacing foe I feel. Almost as if no one that has ever looked at him has lived to tell the tale or that no being would even dare to look at him. There is also the argument that after he loses the ring Sauron has no physical form as such and takes on other forms. He did trick the elves originally by appearing as a man who gave gifts.

He's starting to sound like Middle Earth's Keyser Soze

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Thanks I will take that as a compliment

The 'four fingers' and 'man sized' references you make is just his like ghostly form. like the ring wraiths, it is not 100% physical form but like by the war of the ring/hobbit, it is like 50%.

cky Fingersss"]The 'four fingers' and 'man sized' references you make is just his like ghostly form. like the ring wraiths, it is not 100% physical form but like by the war of the ring/hobbit, it is like 50%.[/quote]

Yes it is possible.
I quite like that thought.
But do you have a reference to that?

I like to deduce that if he is like the ringwraiths it is possible for him to wear armor and enter the battlefield.

What do you think about this;
The elves life in 2 realms so to say.
The earthly and the spirit realm.
Sauron his form in the spirit realm is to terrible to behold.
In the earthly realm he only has a form, the bigger but not a giant shape of a man.
And that he is reforming he can physicaly touch you but the power of his earthly form is not that great in power as his spiritual form.

I guess the closest he came to take a physical form was as a Necromancer.

so you can say he had a semi-corporial form. Don't know if that qualifies

What even happens to dead Maiar anyways?

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A Maiar never truly dies. Their spirit returns to the Valar after their physical form can no longer be used. Saruman's spirit was not allowed to return as he had failed his task and was forced to wonder Arda (The Earth). I think even Saurons spirit even remained after the ring was destroyed but he could never fully come back and was just a malice that could have no effect on the Earth.

Sauron his body was destroyed correct?
He didn't die because of the ring.

Interesting discussion.
This is a very good article on the subject:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/faq/sauronshape.html

All in all, I would have to agree with this article: it seems that Sauron was indeed able to take a physical form.
However, what this article does not touch upon is the two worlds that all things in Arda live in: the Seen and the Unseen (also given other names). We are familiar with the Seen. I assume this is what everyone means with a 'physical form'. His spirit would refer to Sauron in the Unseen.
The Seen is where Frodo looks like a Hobbit, Gandalf like an old man and a Nazgul like a black-cloaked rider, where his head is invisible. The Unseen is where that same Nazgul looks pale-grey, ghastly. If we consider what the Nazgul looked like, I think we can gather a great deal of information about how the Seen and Unseen interacted (and thus how Sauron -being a Maiar- could be 'seen' at all). Here's what we know of the Witch-King:

The Return of the King, LoTR Book 5, Ch 6, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields


The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 1, Ch 11, A Knife in the Dark


The second quote comes from when Frodo wears the Ring, and thus seeing the Nazgul in the Unseen.
These two quotes has always struck me to be particularly interesting. There is an interaction between the Seen and the Unseen. The Nazgul, being Men ensnared by the power of their Rings and controlled by Sauron, have long yet passed away (their Human form that is). Their souls remain, bound to their Rings. In the Unseen they still presummably look like their former human form, however when looking in the Seen, they cannot be seen at all. It seems thus that the Nazgul solely live in the Unseen.
There is, however, also an interaction possible. They could be robed, could wield a sword, wear a crown and even ride a horse! In a way, this seems pretty physical to me.

Now, there are more creators that live in both worlds at the same time. The Maiar, Valar and Elves most notably. The Elves that have been to Valinor are especially bright in the Unseen (and this is why Glorfindel could ride against the Nazgul). The Maiar were spirits living in the Unseen, but they could generally decide to take form that could be seen in the Seen. It seems to me that the Valar had more freedom of the form that they could take. From the article I've linked above, it seems clear that Maiar also could take Seen forms. Note that the Nazgul are obviously not Maiar and could presumably not choose their forms (not any more than you choose your clothes that is).
The Istari, being Maiar, would normally be able to change their form in the Seen, but the Valar forbid them and sent them to Middle-earth like old travellers.

I think that Sauron, even though after having lost the Ring, had his main form: his spirits form in the Unseen world. It seems that taking a Seen-form used some power and since he lost the Ring, he lost a large part of his power, thus becoming unable to take a visible (Seen) form.
From the quotes in the article, it seems that Sauron could not anymore take a 'fair' shape, one that would look good to the Free Peoples. For some reason Sauron, having lost a big deal of power, was not allowed to take a fair form anymore. Clearly, there must have been some kind of 'rules' on which forms the Maiar could take, or at least it seems that taking a body something Good was harder for Sauron, being Evil. What exactly these rules are is not clear from the books.


Also, to answer your question: it's important not to forget that Sauron put a part of his power into his Ring, and without it, he obviously had less power. Continuing my previous reasoning, it seems like he had lost so much power, that he could not take a physical form for a long time. For that reason, it seemed to the free peoples that Sauron was destroyed, although only his physical (Seen form) had temporarily be destroyed.


Okay, this post has become longer than I anticipated, maybe more tomorrow and congrats to all people who've read it to the end. I hope everything still makes sense though.

Idk about actual quotes, but I've always been under the impression that Sauron did in fact have a physical form, it's just that it was weaker than his original form and that he didn't want to risk any harm to himself, which is why he didn't appear at any major battle in the WotR. As for the original post, think of the Ring as the battery to Sauron's toy/laptop/whatever. As soon as the battery is removed, he stops working properly.

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