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Womt are they bad at combat
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1443		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  Little_Odo [ Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:00 pm ]
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In the films they were portrayed as rather useless in a fight but in the book they were amongst the best warriors in Middle Earth. One of my main gripes with the films is that PJ shows absolutely no tactical nous for any of the races - examples...

The Elves at Helm's Deep when the wall is destroyed. They fire off a salvo of arrows and then charge. The gap was only big enough for a few Uruks to fit through at once - keep the arrows piling in to stop the gap with the dead. Only join hand-to-hand when all arrows spent - cowardly but effective.

The Siege of Minas Tirith. Why did they all line up 3 or 4 deep on the walls just to be pounded by the catapults? Keep a few on the walls and bring the rest up as reserves when gaps appear in the defences and to sally against the siege towers. Although, Gandalf does rally the men brilliantly when Grond breaks through - best thought out battle scene in the film IMHO.

Riders of Rohan on the Pelenor. Takes Theoden half an hour with his monologue to build up his men's courage before charging - Orcs have plenty of time to arrange a defensive strategy.

Battle of Black Gates. Ditto above. There were no ranks, archers, cavalry etc. - No tactics, just a massed bundle.

Although, I have to admit the scenes do look good on screen but they pale a bit when I put my serious/gaming head on.
Author:  Dorthonion [ Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:14 pm ]
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PJ was going for visual and emotional effect, and had to cater for an audience that was not necessarily Middle-earth literate, never mind having any medieval siege expertise... the accountants and marketing people constrained the length of the films, more than any limitation on cinema-goers stamina, so giving it the full book treatment was impractical.

I guess we just have to live with it.
Author:  Chineselegolas [ Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:19 am ]
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I agree that tactically many of the scenes in the film weren't perfect, but it is a film

And at helms deep, I think that part of the reason they charged was because Gimli was trapped under the water in the middle of the uruk ranks

And at Minas Tirith, much of the area behind the walls was destroyed by rocks flung to far, hitting the buildings behind causing them to collapse into the streets, thus if any warriors had of been there, *squish*

And Theodens Speech, the men would know they are charging into likely death, so many wouldn't have there full heart in the fight, theodens speech raises their moral, and thus increasing change of victory
Also it was a long charge down the hill towards the Orcs, thus even if he hadn't of done the speech, the orcs would still have had time to prepare.
Author:  WitchkingofUmbar_ [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:27 pm ]
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Hi guys1 I know what you mean! WomT fight like kittens in the films. May I draw you to a disscussion I had on another site like this (TLA) http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=view_replies&thread_id=43194&forum_id=4
Author:  pigs05 [ Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:38 am ]
Post subject:  Womt fighting ability
IMO no director shows correct tactical employment of troops because imo that would look not as dramatic as the komt charging at the osgiliath ruins...think unsupported cavalry no softening up barrage, then get past that opening howler what can mounted troops do in a ruined area anyway? there aren't even enough numberwise to take and hold the target they are given. they start their charge tooo far out ordinary horses are blown at those sort of ranges(ie tired out of wind) ok say they get past that hurdle(and the horde of orc arrows raining on them) what then what? the charge becomes daintily picking your way thru ruined clogged streets, what are the orcs doing? rocks timber thrown down, the Komt sitting high up perfect targets for bowmen firing from behind cover.....it didn't have any sense at all. What shows why it was in film is Pj army background zero plus the main reason he was trying to get across the dramatic message of Denethors insanity, not pandering to people who have some knowledge of military tactics. ie its great on film , don't take it to heart. :D
Author:  Oldie [ Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Womt fighting ability
pigs05 wrote:
its great on film , don't take it to heart. :D


Could not agree more - I grew up thinking that a horse could run at full gallop for three days without food or water - especially if he was being chased by indians
Author:  pigs05 [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  WOMT
YOU MEAN THEY CAN'T!!!!?? :cry: :cry: :wink: :wink:
Author:  Kalamir [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:38 am ]
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I think you should read what Chinese legolas said , its exactly what i would of said if he didnt write it. He makes the most sence!!
Author:  Durburz55 [ Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:53 pm ]
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It has to be said PJ made the WoMT look useless. I think i can only remember 1 of them actually killing an orc and thats when they break thruogh the gates and that WoMT pile drives that orc with his spear :)
They probably killed more but I can't remember them :oops:
Author:  samyo [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:53 am ]
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a few WOMT are punching orcs to death in a street of Minas Tirith where a troll is throwing guys around and a warg is feasting on a dead soldier
Author:  lorderkenbrand [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:19 am ]
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This thread is dead mate, look at the date, over 2 years old :shock:
Author:  Captain Ingold [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:41 am ]
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Who cares? We'll talk on it anyway!

Remember, the Gondorians had never let an Orc cross the Anduin in Gondor EVER. Sauron was in the middle of launching his largest attack ever seen in Middle Earth, and most of the soldiers in Minas Tirith were tired troops, outnumbered hugely, remember Denethor only gave them a few troops?Besides, this is just a PJ-Portrayal. They were ca lot better in the books.
Author:  KnightOfRohan [ Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:59 am ]
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Personally I think that the WOMT should have had tougher scenes.
For example, one WOMT could have killed an orc and then himself get slaughtered. I would be fine with that!
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:35 pm ]
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I think the issue with this battle in the movie that it doesn't show the time it took the Orcs to break the city. And with regards to the swarming and the dire need for support it was heroic for WoMT to withstand this attack for such long time. You only see it, oh....it became all night now with Grond fire is ablaze.

And surely the battle tactics were never clear in RoTK movie. Is there any hint on how they arranged their defences, can you see it in the movies other than piling behind high walls. They also had enough time to work on it before the forces of darkness arrive.

This is one of the reasons I like the TTT movie better. I think I could see battle tactics all over the field.

The unforgetable couple of mitues that changed the tides of battle in a glance... or should I say in a blast.

The blocks of Uruks trying to reach the gate to bring it down...."is that all you can conjure Saruman" Theoden said looking at their sissy move. BOOOOOOOOOOOM, the deeping wall explodes....The look on Theoden's face, and looking at the sissy attack on the gate that now became a major threat that'll keep them from defending the preached wall. Seeing most of his army pulled to defend the hole, the king decided to go himself to help defending the gate...... AWSOME and BREATH TAKING!...both in movies and in books.

To make the long story short, I think it's not that tactics will be boring if captured correctly in the movie, but it was what PJ concentrating on more. Especialy in such a long battle that lasted a whole day and lots of possible visual effects as I think ChineseLegolas mentioned, against one night battle in TTT. There were lots of things to highlight inside and outside of the battlefield that drew his attention from just taking care of battle tactics. So much was happenning in parallel in the stroyline, and he hasn't even captured them all.
Author:  Corsair [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:57 am ]
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goblin_king wrote:
I was just thinking that. By the time it took gothmog to reach the place they could have shot them out because the orcs had no bows from what I saw.

The orcs have bows in the extended edition because a osgiliath sentry sees the orc and gothmog shouts, the orc next to him fires an arrow an kills the sentry.

charge of the rohirim is stupidly planned out. "Lets just wait for the orcs to see us and shoot us, then we charge!" :?
Author:  Darren-5-08 [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:58 pm ]
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Corsair wrote:
goblin_king wrote:
I was just thinking that. By the time it took gothmog to reach the place they could have shot them out because the orcs had no bows from what I saw.

The orcs have bows in the extended edition because a osgiliath sentry sees the orc and gothmog shouts, the orc next to him fires an arrow an kills the sentry.

charge of the rohirim is stupidly planned out. "Lets just wait for the orcs to see us and shoot us, then we charge!" :?


i think that was done for a dramatic effect, having theoden pluck up his troops' courage before charging. also, someone mentioned that it was because of the army of the dead that good won. in the film, the army of the dead didn't fight at pelennor, they had only to fight one battle and they did so to secure the ships of the corsairs of umbar. then they were free to rest. it was the dunedain who went on to pelennor, with elladan and elrohir.

the warriors of minas tirith were fine warriors, PJ just depicted them dying in osgiliath because they were a tiny defensive unit against the entire horde of mordor; they had no chance whatsoever and their morale must have been low...

if you watch the extended edition, they fought very well at the siege of minas tirith. gothmog tried with numerous battering rams but couldn't break through. it wasn't until HOURS later when grond was brought forward that the gate was broken... :D:P
Author:  Rune-Keeper [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:16 pm ]
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In the films they looked as though they were poorly trained, they never seemed to be able to hit an enemy, plus they lacked courage which did not help they're fighting skills.
Author:  Rune-Keeper [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:16 pm ]
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In the films they looked as though they were poorly trained, they never seemed to be able to hit an enemy, plus they lacked courage which did not help they're fighting skills.
Author:  General Haar [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:58 pm ]
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Rune-Keeper, you should really play Magic.

Image

Now really, cut it out.
Author:  Galadhrim [ Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:21 am ]
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I think they were good at fighting, not brilliant, but good. The fact that they lacked morale and leadership didn't help them. (Gandalf can't be everywhere :wink: )
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