With this dwarf list i´ve played against a few guys at store. I´ve won all the matches we have played. A few of those i beat last time i played ment the list was powergaming. I don´t think so but i want to get some opinions. Do you guys think this list is powergaming???

Gimli 90 pts
6 Khazad Guard 66 pts
6 Iron guard 90 pts
11 Dwarf warriors/w shields 99 pts
10 Dwarf warriors/w bows 90 pts
5 Dwarf warriors/w two handed axes 40 pts
1 vault warden team 25 pts

(it was friendly games so they allowed the vault wardens)

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"I will take it. I will take the Ring to Mordor...though I do not know the way."
—Frodo, at the Council of Elrond

Apart from the Vault warden alliance i find nothing that would resemble power gaming...


No! for my vote

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I am the Mouth of Sauron, here him speak'

It looks like a 500 point list? I don't see a problem. All you've done is take more numbers instead of more heroes. Does everybody else take more heroes?

Yeah i dont see a problem with that list. Thats a No vote from me. I dont see evidence of powergaming.

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http://noddwyr.wordpress.com

yeah it´s a 500 points, and no they have taken pretty normal lists (don´t remember any of ´em).

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"I will take it. I will take the Ring to Mordor...though I do not know the way."
—Frodo, at the Council of Elrond

It doesn't seem powergaming to me, as you were allowed the Vault Wardens.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I see nothing cheezy or PG-style about it. I don't even think the VW are a big deal because you have only one and they're pretty limited in mobility and functionality anyway. I think it's a good, solid Dwarf list. Their problem may be more that Dwarves can be a very tough army to beat and can mop the floor against many foes if played well.

If they're complaining about the VWs, drop them (I doubt they are the central focus of your strategy ) and add a couple more KG or even just some regular DWs.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Nope, seems like a good 500 point list to me. Did someone accuse you of 'powergaming'?

The only thing I can say is that, at 500 points, Dwarves can be terribly hard to beat because of their numbers - so maybe that has something to do with it (if someone did indeed accuse you of powergaming).

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What possble reason could somebody complain about this list? - it could even be improved! Just sounds like soure grapes to me from your opponants.

thanks for all the response guys next time i´l just show him this (if he calls it Powergaming)

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"I will take it. I will take the Ring to Mordor...though I do not know the way."
—Frodo, at the Council of Elrond

I'm confused as to what powergaming is.

The list is definately not powergaming, and as Hithero said, it could even be improved further



This is kind of off topic: Powergaming is building a list that is full of the most effective units, best combinations and most effective hero/HQ/lord (and in SBG can also be maximising numbers with the above). A powergaming list may also include spamming or other shady rules issues. Power gamers may also be rules lobyists, this is due to their obsession with winning.

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When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Backlog Reduction Oath Participant - 6/53

Exploiting a hole in the rules for nefarious gain. Example: Outriders w/bows + Gamling and his banner. Since Outriders are "heroes", the 33% bow rule doesn't apply; plus each Outrider can keep using and regaining a point of might.

Or if you didn't play LoME rules, 500 points of goblins could be 93 models...!

Thats not an example of powergaming - thats all legal and within the rules.

Powergaming came about pre LoME - people used to combine forces such as dwarves for defence/strength with WoMt with spears for backup etc. It mostly came about when people allied forces together that wouldn't normaly be together for their own advantage.

LoME was supposed to alliviate the issue of dodgy alliances, but realisticly it didn't, as it aloud most of the controversial alliances anyway!

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Live to share, share to live.

That's the old version of power-gaming. It still exists but in another form as Whafrog explained. With the list, I think you'd be better off anyway dropping the vault warden team and a dwarf with shield and another with 2H axe and getting a banner.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

I'm not sure how your example is different from mine wrt legality.

Powergaming used to be when people used forces from totaly different factions and races that would never have been together in the War of the Ring saga
to create an advantage.

E.g. using seccond age men for their F4 with WoMT with spears for back up because they were cheaper. (back when the points values were quite different to they are now) Or dwarves for the D with WoMT with shields removed but have spears for back up because they were cheap.

The list explained above is legal, all from the same force, thats not powergaming, its just using the stregths from that force. To powergame it he would need to bring in some cheap forgien faction with spears.

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Live to share, share to live.

So powergaming is just mixing different armies to your advantage? That's not how I understand it. I think, like Whafrog, it means that you exploit certain, normally unclear, rules and loopholes.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I think DM has it right.

Some wargames have little pockets of grossly miscosted units. Anyone who is not starting out (and so does not have the knowledge to judge relative effectiveness) in a game like that has a pretty good idea of what these are.

Powergamers trawl through lists to assemble armies that stack as many of these miscostings together to get a legal army (illegal versions are simply 'cheats') that is considerably more effective point for point than their opponet's army.

In a competitive setting, you will always get some doing this. In a game with a properly balanced set of costings, this will not confer too much of an advantage and that will mainly stem from intelligent synergies and good tactics, and there will tend to remain a large number of viable ways of doing things. In a game without a properly balanced set of costings, you won't get a 'meaningful' game unless everyone is doing it, since for any given player skill level some armies will be significantly more effective than others.

That is, powergamers play by the rules, but nonetheless make it much harder to have meaningful games. I think the amount of diversity you see in lists at comps is a good indicator of the type of job they have done with their costings.

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That would include the Outrider/Gamling example then I think it's all power-gaming, both DM's examples and my own, and you have nicely summarized it with this statement.