Endless mulling over Arnor options, but so little game experience. Today's favorite:

Cirdan 90
Malbeth 75
33 W. of Arnor 284 pts
12 Hobbit Archers 48 pts

47 units 2 might 497 points

Pluses: every unit gets to roll 5+ fate points (foresight), passes all courage (aura of command) and are all but arrow proof (blinding light). Who needs heros?
Minuses: no heros = no attack over Strength 3, and only 2 might.

For a little offense, I could throw in a Dwarf Captain & 2 buddies, and drop down to 25 W. of Arnor and 11 archers...

Or trade in Malbeth & Cirdan for:
Monkey Twins (plain) + Dunedan + horn OR
Erestor + Stormcaller + horn

Advice, please.

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"make me lunch... worthy of Mordor"

I wouldn't take Cirdan and Malbeth, as they're too similar. Take one and a fighty Hero as well.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Theme-wise I kind of like it, it looks pretty interesting, I haven't seen anyone try this before. Very good numbers for an F4 army. Try it out and let us know how it works!

Hard call, choosing between. Leaning toward Malbeth, as his Foresight should save 1/3 of all wounds...statistically, anyway. I think. But with Courage being this army's big weak point--and so many Terror causing bad guys--Cirdan's Aura of Command is appealing and makes a horn unnecessary. Blinding Light is not so hard to lose, with D6 troops. How's this:

Malbeth 75
Dwarf Captain with throwing Axes 65
37 Wof Arnor (one with horn) 316 pts
11 Hobbit Archers 44 pts

50 units 3 might 500 points

This does feel a little more balanced, thanks. Should I be concerned about Courage 3?

Thanks.

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"make me lunch... worthy of Mordor"

I haven't found Courage to play a major role in SBG. Occassionly you'll have a game when low Courage will be a big problem but normally you won't. So, no, I wouldn't be concerned about a low Courage.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Comforting, thanks. I guess with larger point armies I'll meet more Terror causing beasties. And WotR might be in the future.

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"make me lunch... worthy of Mordor"

Have to disagree with that, I find it comes into play a lot. What about charging trolls and such? Or Ringwraiths, which come with a -1 penalty? Or having a drum on the field?
Depending on the scenario, the effects of Courage play a big part in my strategy. Elves might be outnumbered and break sooner, but if they can break goblins they often win through attrition. Tactical choices like tying up captains so they can't use standfast can be a big deal.

Whafrog is right, it does play a substantial part in a game. if your warriors have low courage and you break, all your opponent has to do is stop your stand fasts and in 1 turn you'll lose sooooo many guys. not to mention terror causers and nazgul.... you have a hard time taking down a terror causeing combat monster cause you cant get enough guys on him at once (all this is learned from experience).

on the bright side you do have malbeth, so breaking you will be really hard (and your already F4, D6). I would definitely max out on bows so you can take out terror causers before they even reach you (trolls easily become pin cushions), not to mention your archers have a low D, so you will lose some to volleys ect so you need to have more than what you think

I think that your lists are fine, the first will be harder to use (cirdan needs to be at the right place at the right time, cause it lacks any kind of combat hero) so I would put my vote to the second list. the 2nd one is simple, but very effective (and rock hard).

(your second list made me think... imagine a dwarf army with malbeth.... it would be sooooo hard to kill those dwarves!!!!)

I will play with beefing up the archers, thanks. Problem is: they are so cheap (4pts) that a simple adding of 5 archers costs me 5 Warriors of Arnor and wastes 20 points (16 archers, 32 WoA for 480 total). Painful. I love the Arnor list, but not for its versatility. How's this look:

Malbeth 75
Dwarf Captain w/ shield and throwing axes 70
3 Dwarf warriors w/ shields 27
1 Dwarf Warrior with bow 9
30 WofArnor ( 1 w/ horn) 260
14 Hobbit Archers (32%) 56

50 units 3 might 497 points

Still weak on might, and only a horn for Courage 3 still has me nervous. But still rock hard, not easily broken with so many, and my Hero Assault Team is stumpy legged but strong. Any other Rivendale or Khazdum heros with Aura of Command?

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"make me lunch... worthy of Mordor"

Sure, Courage plays a part in SBG, but in my opinion not a fundamental or significant part. If, however, you are worried about having a low Courage, surely you should take Arvedui for his extended Standfast. He costs the same amount as the Dwarf Captain but does most things better.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I like Arvedui thematically...but for the same price, a Dwarf Captain has D8, an extra attack on a charge and a Fate point. Arvedui offers only 1 extra might and will, and the extended Standfast that I likely won't use.The Standfast only kicks in when an army is broken, right? (forgive the noob question) If that is true, I am not too worried about a large D6 army breaking, especially with 1/3 saved by Malbeth's Foresight. I fear those budget Nazguls, trolls and spider queens, as -1 from Nazguls brings Arnor troops back down to Courage 2...and then few can attack. So Cirdan's 'Pass All Courage' is a must for my larger point army, but right on the cusp for 500 points.
From the list above, Cirdan costs me 4 Dwarves, 3 WofA, 1 Hobbit and a horn. Thus:

Cirdan 90
Malbeth 75
Dwarf Captain w/ throwing axes 65
27 WofArnor 216
13 Hobbit Archers 52

43 units 4 might 498 points

Maybe only experience will tell me if the smaller army is hard enough to withstand. 'Blinding Light' alone should buy me back some of the seven units lost... This is great; really appreciate the different opinions.

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"make me lunch... worthy of Mordor"

Don't warriors of arnor cost 9 points as they all have spears? The list looks pretty good, though. Cirdan could be very useful in an Arnor army and blinding light will help as well. Having him and Malbeth would make a very defensive army and with the hobbit archers and spears, you can force the enemy to come to you. Cavalry, though, is the only weakness of this army I think as you only have 2 might so you won't be able to call a lot of heroic actions. IMHO, the dwarf captain is unthematic. Even though Ardevui isn't as good at defence as the d. captain, I think the extra might would be useful and he seems much more thematic. P.S, are hobbits part of the arnor list?

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

Only Hobbit archers.

fritskuhntm, why does a Dwarf Captain get an extra attack when he charges? And, yes, the Standfast is only used when the army is broken.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

[\quote] fritskuhntm, why does a Dwarf Captain get an extra attack when he charges? [/quote]

Throwing Axes.

Is that Malbeth/Cirdan Arnor list (27 WofA and 13 Hobbits) as hard to break as I think? Should I reconsider Arvenui for his Standfast, in other words?

It would be fun/useful to think of The Nightmare Enemy of this list...maybe Moranon Orcs and a few Nazguls? One 'sap will' spell and Cirdan is toast.

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"make me lunch... worthy of Mordor"

But for that the ringwraith must see Cirdan and the warrios of arnor are large models

And about the courage ,courage plays a huge part in Sbg. If you charge your enemy hero's. Your army will be running within 10 seconds.

the first army list with cirdan and arvedui looks very fun but I think you should drop a warrior of arnor. for that points you can replace 4 warriors of arnor with high elfs with spear and shield.

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"There are only 4 things you need in life: Lasagna, beer, a girlfriend and of course a gondor army."

Can Cirdan lay down to stay out of sight? Or is one warrior in front of him enough?
Elves with shields for high courage, yes! Spears can be supplied by Arnor, as support spears don't have to roll for Courage, right? Though as long as Cirdan is within 14cm, none of my Arnor army has to roll for courage....so this idea is a nice backup in case Cirdan's will drops below 1. But without Cirdan, it solves a serious problem...still missing the 'fighty hero' for the Strength 4 attack. How's this:

Erestor 75
9 Elf Warriors with Shield 72
4 Elf Warriors with Bow 36
Malbeth 75
22 Warriors of Arnor (one horn) 196
11 Hobbit Archers (33%) 44

48 Units 2 might 498 points 15 bow shots.

Now I've got my numbers back up, and the Courage problem patched. Ideas?

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"make me lunch... worthy of Mordor"

Hmm... Lack of might is quite serious. I might take Cirdan instead of Erestor and then take Ardeuvi instead of Malbeth. Also, swap the 4 high elves with bows for 5 hobbit archers and give the high elves with shields heavy armour as D6 will help their survivability a lot. I really don't know. Depends on your taste, you could take Malbeth and Erestor as you said or you could take Cirdan and Ardeuvi. The latter will give you twice as much might but it's all a matter of taste I guess.

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

Might, right. Plug one hole, make another. Here is a might friendly list that is hard on numbers. Can't leave out Malbeth...too unique, with that chance to save 1/3 of all wounds within 14cm.

Monkey Twins 140
2 Elves with heavy armor and shields 20
Malbeth 75
24 Warriors of Arnor 212
12 Hobbit Archers 48

41 Units 7 Might 495 Points 12 Bow Shots.

A good Enemy Hero Assault Team with Arnor supplying spears (no courage test needed). 12 bow shots instead of 15, and lower numbers. Too low? Or still hard enough to break, with D6 and Malbeth's foresight? Hobbits are worthless when the shooting stops, but still contribute to numbers. I suppose this could be endless...but this is great for considering options.

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"make me lunch... worthy of Mordor"

As you say. Thing I love about this game: many configurations work, none work for every situation. I actually kind of like your first list, because it's unusual. People have made winning 500 point elf armies led by only Arwen, so being led by non-fighters isn't a stretch.

I think the last one would work too...you're in elf-number territory, but with big hero power and fate saves you'll probably do fine...but it's a bit more standard.

In the last list i would say take out the 2 elves and give the monkey twins heavy armour and bows or give them horses as it would make them more effective as killers.

Though as whafrog pointed out your first list is neat, unusual and could work well.

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