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Good and evil army help
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=21057		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Good and evil army help
Ok so i am trying to create some decent army lists for 500pt games.

I'll start off with evil, the one im more confident about.

Undying on Horse 130pts
Wild warg chieftan 75pts
10 wild wargs 80pts
Goblin captain 40pts
35 moria goblins (15 bow, 10 spear, 10 shield) 175pts

500 points total, 48 models, 15 bows, 5 might (all expendable)

I'm pretty confident about that list, but i am having so much difficulty creating a competitive good list. Here is my best idea yet

Gimli
6 khazad guard
6 dwarves with shield
6 dwarves with bow
Faramir (heavy armour, bow)
12 womt with spear and shield
6 womt with bow

Total 500pts, 38 models, 13 bows, 6 might, 12 dwarves with spear support...

Any help would be good, i do not have any grey company to ally in :(
But i do have rohan, more dwarves, most of the power heroes (saruman, legolas etc).
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
Two big heroes in 500 points really cuts into your model count. A rule of thumb is 1 might per 100 points of troops, if you go over that you're probably spending too much. It's a bit of a sliding scale, since with goblins and the like you can probably get more, and with dwarves and elves you'll end up with less. So in your case maybe you need to end up with Beregond instead of Faramir, and maybe that will let you take some cavalry as well.
Author:  General Elessar [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
I like both lists. The Shadow Lord would probably be better than the Undying though.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
What about Dark marshall? a common probelm with my wargs is that they are always outnumbered, the dark marshall would allow them to stand more of a chance when outnumbered....
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
@ Whafrog, is there any way an all hero force could work? Im really tempted to just go nuts with wanderes in the wild+the fellowship+The wizards.

This is what i have in mind:

Radagast 150pts
Boromir 105pts
Murin and Drar 150pts
Legolas with armour 95 pts

500pts, 5 models, 18 might, 5 shots

I chose radagast over saruman because he can heal the crew, which is kinda important (especially considering boromir has no fate, and murin and drar have 1 fate...)
Author:  Highlordell [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
I like the first army list alot. You've got some good horde units in, and mobility from the Wargs. Adding the Undying is questionable, you could always use a standard wraith and add some elites like prowlers, but its up to you. I like the Undying's staying power due to his special rule so he could be a benefit, but using him properly will probably mean the difference between victory and defeat, considering his points cost.

The problem with all-hero armies is that heroes aren't cost effective compared to troops, and therefore aren't meant to be used with other heroes. They really just exist to help your main army and compensate for it's weaknesses.

Just look at your first army, those 35 Moria Goblins are less than half the cost of your 500 points army, and i bet if you used 70 your heroes would stand a chance, even if there was 5 of them.
Author:  General Elessar [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
The Elf twins are the best option for an all-Hero army.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
General Elessar wrote:
The Elf twins are the best option for an all-Hero army.


Really? Im worried that their low defence score will have gandalf healing them every bleedin' turn but 3 fight 6 attacks should keep them safe. Well i haven't bought the Twins or Murin and Drar yet, im guessing it will be one or the other....

and @Highlordell 70 models is against the limit, but beside that pathetic attempt for an argument i just made, your probably right i doubt each of my hguys could kill 10 goblins each, boromir probably could probably kill his points worth due to his horn+goblins pathetic courage but everyone else would struggle (especially radagast)

And what you said about heroes compensating for an armies weaknesses, i totally agree, that is one of my pet hates with goblins, its impossible to win a game of "contest of champions" with anything less than a warg chieftan/spider queen :I
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
I've never played an all hero army, but if you scan some threads at the Last Alliance site I believe somebody did pretty well with one last year at a tournament. Twins are essential from what I recall. Give them heavy armour and a horse (options available in the Ruin of Arnor book). I believe the other heroes were Aragorn and Saruman the White.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
I’ve never played an all-Hero army but I do often play Hero-heavy armies when playing Good. They really are at risk from being overwhelmed and are at an obvious disadvantage in scenarios that are number based, but I find them to be a fun challenge and can still be very effective when you get the tuning just-right and develop experience with them to leverage their strengths while covering their weaknesses. In Tolkien’s work, as with many fantasy authors, the side of Good is often represented by a few key Heros doing…well…heroic things. They may be supported by armies but it’s really their actions that win the day and save the world.

Likewise, in SBG (and to a lesser degree WotR), my Good armies are usually heavier on the ratio of Hero/Troop than my evil forces. I regularly play close to 50/50 with many of my Good forces, while my Evil armies are more of 25/75 or 33/66.
Author:  BlackMist [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
Highlordell wrote:
The problem with all-hero armies is that heroes aren't cost effective compared to troops, and therefore aren't meant to be used with other heroes. They really just exist to help your main army and compensate for it's weaknesses.

Having won the 2009 doubles GT with an all-hero force, then having been 2nd at the 2010 doubles behind an all-hero force, and having won a 2011 singles GT, where the 3rd place was given to an all-hero force... I have to strongly disagree with this. Heroes ARE LotR. Heroes are what makes this game what it is and heroes are the most important and most essential part of competitive play. In majority of the cases it's troops that support the heroes, not the other way round. In a properly built force both troops and heroes become cost effective.
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Really? Im worried that their low defence score will have gandalf healing them every bleedin' turn but 3 fight 6 attacks should keep them safe. Well i haven't bought the Twins or Murin and Drar yet, im guessing it will be one or the other....

Yup Twins are the best combat heroes in the game. Why worry about their defence? If you worried about models defence you'd say that Spider Queen is bad too and that's not true. Defence makes no difference when you don't lose combats. Twins very rarely lose combats because charging when mounted they have 4 attacks to win with F6, which beats everything that the evil side has other than Trolls (which nobody uses anyway).

SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
This is what i have in mind:

Radagast 150pts
Boromir 105pts
Murin and Drar 150pts
Legolas with armour 95 p
500pts, 5 models, 18 might, 5 shots

This army has no right to be successful. Legolas, Murin and Drar have only 2 attacks each and aren't mounted - they're useless for combat. Radagast has no offensive spells and gives no protection from enemy bowfire. Boromir is too easy to take out with a Ringwraith.

In 500pts in terms of all-hero force I would probably get Twins, Glorfindel Lord and Gandalf all mounted. Twins and Glorf are 4 attacks on charge, Gandalf gives Blasts and Blinding Light.
I'm sure in 700pts the best all-hero force you can make is Aragorn/Twins/Glorfindel/Gandalf (although whether you take Glorfindel or Boromir CotWT is a subject to discussion - extra might and lance or F7 and Magic resistance, I would choose Glorfindel), all of them mounted.

But coming back on topic of the original lists (that's what I came here for in the first place I think):
Good looks pretty good, maybe swap dwarf bowmen for rangers so you get volley fire. Numbers are very good there.
Evil is a bit 'meh', nothing special in it really. Again SQ > Chieftain, but if you prefer the dog then it's your choice ;) I don't mind Undying, although he's a bit of an overkill in 500pts, I would rather have him in 700 with another wraith on board.
Author:  Highlordell [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
BlackMist wrote:
Highlordell wrote:
The problem with all-hero armies is that heroes aren't cost effective compared to troops, and therefore aren't meant to be used with other heroes. They really just exist to help your main army and compensate for it's weaknesses.

Having won the 2009 doubles GT with an all-hero force, then having been 2nd at the 2010 doubles behind an all-hero force, and having won a 2011 singles GT, where the 3rd place was given to an all-hero force... I have to strongly disagree with this. Heroes ARE LotR. Heroes are what makes this game what it is and heroes are the most important and most essential part of competitive play. In majority of the cases it's troops that support the heroes, not the other way round. In a properly built force both troops and heroes become cost effective.


I'll take your point, as you seem to have some experience in the matter, whereas I have no experience whatsoever of tournament play.

Whether the OP wants a super competitive all hero tournament army, or a balanced mixed of heroes and troops (in his original lists) is another matter.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
Ok, i've tweaked the hero list, still no gandalf but i reckon it will do quite well, and yes i know legolas sucks in comat (to an extent) but he can kill the shadow lord/cut down the approaching army. I kept Boromir becuase saruman can command a wraith that is 18" away, which will either reduce its will/move it out of range to compel boromir

Saruman
Boromir
Legolas with armour
The twins with armour

5 models, 15 might, 3 shots

One question, who should be the leader? Im thinking boromir or maybe legolas...
Author:  BlackMist [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
Without Blinding Light - how do you expect to beat 16-bow harad force? For an all-hero Gandalf is always better than Saruman.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
BlackMist wrote:
Without Blinding Light - how do you expect to beat 16-bow harad force?


Hide in a tree...

Sorry for that poor attempt at humor but howabout this?

Gandalf
The twins
Glorfindel
Elf stormcaller

I figured the stormcaller can cast nature wrath a bunch of times if gandalf keeps restoring his will, which will be more than useful.
Author:  BlackMist [ Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
Think about getting yourself horses. And Nature's Wrath only has a good effect if you have models to actually charge those on the ground, here you don't, you're better off with sorcerous blasts, at least they cause damage.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
Okay, ive found a few bargains for mounted heroes on ebay. But just out of interest, can the model of legolas+gimli mounted be used in tournaments?
Author:  BlackMist [ Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
Yeah, as mounted Legolas because you can't use passengers in most tournaments.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
Ok im meeting up for a casual session in a few days and am wondering how effective this will be, take into consideration that i will be in a team with a dwarf player (will almost certainly be fielding dain 20-30 or so dwarves)

Grimbold
10 helmingas (throwing weapon, shield)
10 helimingas (shield)
13 outriders on foot
1 warrior of rohan with banner
Boromir of gondor (leader)

498 points, 35 models, 13 bows, 8 might.

I understand this is a low model count but it is all relatively elite, i doubt i'll be against shadow lord, most likely harad+uruks/mordor led by a troll chieftan. Anyway my main question is, should i change my leader to legolas/glorfindel/saruman?
Author:  {aD}??? [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good and evil army help
I think boromir is fine but why so many outriders?
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