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Watchers of Karna
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=28259		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Balin son of Fundin [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Watchers of Karna
Is it me or do Watchers of Karna seem abit OP and broken as that little points for 2 attacks seems too good.
Author:  Bernardo [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
they are OP.
And when you give 50% bows they are even better.
Author:  halauas [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
they are not that OP, considering their low def and normal str they are pretty fragile aswell, and dont forget the army list they belong to, harad is a very offensive army but lack high def when other armies have high def troops much much cheaper (like gondor)
Author:  JamesR [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
Purely for their stats they are under - costed. A haradrim warrior with the warrior of Karna upgrade plus a bow is only 1 point cheaper than a watcher with bow. However when you adjust for the faction they're balanced cost - wise as other units cost far too much
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
They are overpowered. One of the most in the whole game. No way anyone can disagree.

Yeah, their defense sucks, strength is average. But, they have a good fight, great two attacks, decent courage, 50% bow option, and holy Devlan Mud:
-POISION ARROWS
-RESISTANT TO MAGIC
-STEELY NERVE


AND A 3+ TO HIT WITH THE BOW...........???

Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

Name me one troop in the game that is close to that in abilities and strengths vs weaknesses.

I dont know where these guys are from or how they rule middle earth but wow.
Author:  halauas [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
every army has weaknesses and strenghs

Vault wardens (good fight, good str, insance def and for their points you get 2 models=2 attacks)
khazad guard (good fight,good str, really good def and fearless and cheap)

sons of eorl ( almost like a hero and very cheap for what you get)

i can name more units but the point remains the same, when you deploy your watchers of karna where will they get any cover? you dont have anything in the harad list that can protect them or keep a line for long, harad is an offensive army that lacks def.

i agree totaly with JamesR that when it comes to warriors of harad + karna upgrade they are very cheap but army list wise you pick from an army with no def and lost of offense.

Really sorry for my bad english :D
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
First off, your English is fine. Better than some people that live in the same neighborhood as me in fact lol.

But while I dont disagree with you, those units you mentioned are really good, but they just dont get everything awesome. Vault Wardens have many weaknesses. They NEED to move together, and if you lose priority, they have issues against whords. They move slowly, and yeah you get 2 for the points but it is a lot of points you have to take to use them. Also, they fill up warbands fast.

Look at all those negatives.

Watchers only negative is close combat if you lose. Everything up to the point of losing close combat is absolutely not a negative.
Author:  NarsilReforged [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
Watchers are definitely effective because of their good fight, 2 attacks & awesome special rules. Most of you are skimming a bit of the fact that they are def4 and just so easy to kill for a 10 point model though.
Author:  halauas [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
actualy its not about watchers having low def, my point is that they belong to an army with only def 4 :) making every model in harad army easy to kill
or easy to be killed by them :)
Author:  NarsilReforged [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
Yes of course the fact that they are in a low defence force is another negative but I suppose Harad & high defence army alliances would kind of rock...
Author:  Highlordell [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
NarsilReforged wrote:
Most of you are skimming a bit of the fact that they are def4 and just so easy to kill for a 10 point model though.


Defence 3 I believe. Makes it even worse.

As James has said, yes they might be slightly undercosted, but it fits because they have incredibly low defence, their special rules don't affect combat ability, and there are other units in that list which are massively overpriced, e.g. Mahud.

Give a Corsair Reaver with Fight 5 and 4 Def any day. :)
Author:  halauas [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
I cant agree more to the above, they are underpriced for the harad list only (like JamesR said) but not for the army they belong.

Also reavers....reavers, yes those are totaly OP and unbalanced for their points, here i agree aswell.

and for last, yes you can ally with some high def troops but this comes with a cost to your bow limit and your numbers, and harad has a strong point in bows (along with quantity)
Author:  the_shovel [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
Harad have black numenoreans, dont they? They have decent defense values to hide behind
Author:  Dr Grant [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
Watchers of Karna are woefully overpowered. On a point by point basis they are one of the most undercosted warriors in the game. I think we worked out a while ago that they should cost 3 points more than they do. The combination of 3+ shoot, poison and 50% bows is absolutely horrific and very broken.

The lowish defence (it's 4), isn't great but it rarely comes into it. They line up as far away as they can from you and pelt you with shots. They can outshoot almost any army (possibly not pure Mirkwood Rangers) and you are forced to walk towards them, when you finally close they are F4 with 2 attacks, normally supported by Haradrim spearmen and Abrakan Guard. Harad armies are probably the most broken and undercosted in the game.

This isn't hypothetical pondering, it's come from cold/hard experience, there's a common Harard army on the UK tourney scene that regularly places top 5 at UK. I've watched it outshoot everything its come up against and then destroy the remnants come the Fight phase. at the last 500 point tourney there were 17 watchers of Karna in the army, absolutely horrific...
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
Watchers of Karna are incredibly overpowered, no two ways about it.
Author:  KnightyKnight [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
the_shovel wrote:
Harad have black numenoreans, dont they? They have decent defense values to hide behind


Trouble with Black Numenoreans, wonderful models as they are, is that if you take them you negate the Serpent's Sting and the chance for 50%, the area where Watchers of Karna excel.
Author:  JamesR [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
I don't have the UK tourney experience, but from the games I have had Harad has never been a problem. However no one I've ever played against spams potentially OP units. Its just not done.

With that in place, I still don't think they're that OP. I like that Harad has some slightly under-costed units with how grossly over-costed Mahud are, look at their King, especially when compared to comparable troops such as Uruks. No one in a pure-harad force, aside from the Mahud, can reach even D5, which is a big deal as no one ever needs greater than a 5+ to kill you with a shot or in CQC.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
Nope, watchers are OP. yes they go down in combat but you are usually shot to pieces long before you get to combat so it doesnt really matter.
Author:  Thermo [ Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
A watcher of karna Haradrim bowline force is the one that furrows my brow most when I know I'm about to play it.

3 points too cheap, especially as the benefits stack because of Serpent's Sting 50% bow limit rule.
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Watchers of Karna
Harad and Umbar in general is very powerful. Its not like the lists of high elves or Numenor. I mean, honestly, they probably made them more powerful because they knew people would only buy models that were very showcased in the movie. When I first collected for fun and didnt buy anything but the main starter books, I was like Harad, pfffff whatever.

Then I saw the source books when I came back to the hobby, and I was like, lemme get some of that Harad. lol
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