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Throwing Spears underappreciated?
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Author:  Thurin [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Throwing Spears underappreciated?
I've heard a sentiment that throwing spears are awful, and that Rohan's infantry is useless because it doesn't have access to normal spears. I wonder if people might be writing off throwing weapons too hastily.

First of all, it is true that throwing weapons are slightly less good now than they used to be. That's because if you charge and throw, you suffer a -1 to shoot.

What occurs to me is that throwing spears are not a one shot weapon. Fights are separated at the end of every fight phase, then warriors make a new charge. This means that so long as a Rohan player wins priority (or heroic moves) they can use their throwing spears every single turn. Rohan is already an army that desperately needs to win priority every turn. Throwing spears have the same strength as elf bows, but they have no bow limit, so 100% of your infantry can be spear-throwers.

So, you can't make a phalanx out of Warriors of Rohan, but it seems to me that Rohan infantry should be able to focus on dealing damage with their spears, then shield in the fight phase to minimize casualties. They can repeat that every turn until they outnumber their foes enough to win in a melee fight.

I'm hoping to try this in a skirmish with my girlfriend as soon as I've assembled my Warriors of Rohan. It's a shame they suffer -1 to hit.
Author:  thatguy513 [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Throwing Spears underappreciated?
The problem with throwing weapons is not only the -1 modifier on the move (most models needing 5+ to hit), its also that for 3-4 throwing weapons, you can have an additional warrior. Also, once a friendly warrior (good forces - Rohan) has charged and failed to kill an opponent with his throwing weapon, that model becomes tied up and cannot be targetted by another throwing weapon until the combat is resolved (next turn).

It really becomes a question of whether the points can be better spent elsewhere.
Author:  whafrog [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Throwing Spears underappreciated?
I agree throwing spears are under-estimated, an additional factor is their increased range of 8". This allows infantry kiting similar to RoR.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Throwing Spears underappreciated?
Throwing Weapons are an option that needs a plan and place in your army to be effective. If you just add them to x-number of Warriors and figure you will find use for them during the game you will probably have a sour taste for wasted points.

For example, early on I was giving Throwing Daggers to some of my Wood Elves with spears. During game play I started finding too many times where that tactic didn't work. Sure there were a few exceptions such as when one WE with Spear and Daggers held a narrow gap for several turns (threw the daggers when someone was close enough, shielded most turns he was charged) and helped secure the game. But generally I found that since my Spear-armed troops were often supporting, they weren't having a chance to throw very much. Waste of points.

Now I give the daggers mostly just to the troops I equip with Elf Blades. I know that can be a different argument but I do find the Blades well worth the points because Str3 is the only major weakness of the troop. And since the Blade armed warriors never support I never get myself into that same situation. Without the -1 factor they hit fairly often and their chance to Wound is as good as the model is in melee.

With Rohan it's a little different. You don't even have the support factor to consider. But at the same time, the cost of base troops is also cheaper than with WEs so the trade off between a Throwing Spear and more troops can be a harder decision too. What I have found though is, again without the -1, Rohan can benefit from Spears in the ranks if you already have your number count up good. If you've got a lot of points in Heroes, or your force is Cav heavy and you're trying to add the spears to a small Infantry component, you're probably better off getting more troops.

Also if you are going to get Throwing Weapons how comitted are you to their success? If you drop a couple models to get TWs on 2-3 troops you can't expect to see much either way. A couple good roles and you'll love the investment...some bad rolls with them and you'd wish you had more troops instead. The numbers are too small for an honest average. If you give 1/3 of your Warriors of Rohan some Throwing Spears you will have a large enough population of users for some more honest values. Of course, that's a lot of points to shift to that so do NOT take it as a suggestion. Just a reminder that fewer numbers will give more dramatic impressions one way or the other in a single game. Over a few games you will get better at using them and also judging just how many you may want to have in your force.
Author:  Hodush [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Throwing Spears underappreciated?
With free bows and shields, RoR can be really effective so I think that Rohan is very underrated as an army. Yes I think throwing spears are normally skipped, but as has been said, you could be getting more troops so I would normally just equip them to the models that actually have them sculpted on and not bother much more about adding them onto others.

If you give every single rider a spear, it probably isn't as efficient as giving 1/3 or 1/2 - I wouldn't imagine you could get your whole army lined up to throw without getting yourself into a position to be surrounded on many occasions. As Beowulf said, 1/3 of troops with spears is a decent amount to aim for - not too many and not too few. Yes using spears means you should be using hit and run tactics, but thats what cavalry are best at anyway, not charging ranks and getting bogged down.

I played 2 games vs Rohan yesterday and was lucky to get a win in the second one (Eomer rolled two 1's for his courage test). If he had passed I would most likely have been dead in 1-2 turns. The reason to this was that I had to spend 3 turns running my uruks after the horses while they mopped up my right flank. So spreading and infantry army out is a backbreaking strategy. I might add that my opponent hadn't played a game of LOTR since the Return of the King came out and that I really only got to him by getting some surrounds on the flanks and working my way in.
Author:  Thermo [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Throwing Spears underappreciated?
Throwing spears can be useful if you've got the spare points… think of it like this, if it kills one or two enemies in a game, then they're paid for.

They lend themselves to the idea that rohan is a skirmish based army that harasses, weakens the enemy, charge where they're weak and run where they're strong kind of play and I've done this (and heard of others) doing this effectively in the past.

I don't base my strategy on them any more. the moving penalty with throwing weapons makes it tough, but let's do the maths.

You move to harass the enemy with 12 troops with throwing spears.
On a five plus, 4 of those shots should hit.

Against D6 or D7, you've got a 0.6 chance of killing. So every two turns you statistically you should kill just over 1 if 4 hit. In 10 turns you should kill 6.

Against D4 or D5, this increases to 1 in 3 chance, so 1.33 should die each turn if 4 hit on average. In 10 turns you should kill 13.

Against D3, this increases to 50:50 so in theory, if the statistical 4 out of 12 hit for each move and throw, 20 should die over 10 turns of 12 throwing (2 per turn)…


Of course, it won't always work out like the above, but you can cost it up. 12 Throwing spears is 24 points. So you'd need to be killing 4 orcs with spear, shield or bow, 2 warg riders, 2 black guard of barad dur, or three of most other things.

So can they pay for themselves? Yes. Will they pay for themselves? Not always! It's a game of chance as well as strategy after all :)
Author:  Gwaryan [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Throwing Spears underappreciated?
I like your theory about shielding in combat and trying to get your kills in the move phase, I can imagine that if you get some good rolls that could be very frustrating for your opponent. That said, I wouldn't equip everyone with spears as that'd begin to have an impact on your numbers, I'd spread them fairly evenly throughout your front lines, maybe concentrate them on the flanks. Either way, let us know how the testing goes :D
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Throwing Spears underappreciated?
Yeah I like the shielding idea too and yeah it can work against elves or goblins but then you go to face uruk Thai with shields and other troops and you can be screwed.

I lost faith in Rohan when I used to practice with them and their stupid weak bows and throwing spears would miss constantly to wound.

I would only have 8-10 spears in a army of like 24 guys and they got like 2-3 kills. So yeah they'd get their points back but the positioning and the tactics you use to get them in position to do that led me to close to the enemies and I was caught and murdered because rohan sucks in close quarters.
Author:  hithero [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Throwing Spears underappreciated?
In the good ol' days when throwing spears were 1pt I took them as they were of value. When they went to 2pts in crippled the Rohan forces so I stopped using Rohan competitively, now that they -1 to hit they are worthless, not worth the 2pts.
Author:  Gondorian Captain [ Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Throwing Spears underappreciated?
Throwing spears are an excellent tool to use against the enemy, like any tool you need to use it in the right way and be realistic about what it will achieve.

Yes they now hit on -1 thanks to the new moves rules, the point most miss out is that they are once more 8inch range!
So your rohan forces can continuously back off and throw them. Some may say that this isn't much fun for an opponent but how else would light rohan infantry take on heavily armoured phalanxes?

Cavalry can really make use of the throwing spear. The increased move means you can throw all day without the enemy having much chance of catching you. It will also mean when you unleash a cavalry charge you have a chance of dropping some enemies before combat. In a cavalry charge every extra kill is crucial.
If you're taking royal guards, they are the boys to equip with throwing spears, as your more elite cavalry they'll be unleashing the charges.

Will adding throwing spears into your army make them auto win? No. But they are an additional option and can be very useful when called upon.

Additionally the 'shield wall' tactic, when you don't have spears you shield, does somewhat work. It's not ideal as you will lose men without striking blows but throwing spears give you a chance to kill enemies.
The purpose of this tactic for rohan is to hold the enemy in place while the cavalry attack the flanks. A banner for the infantry formation is also essential.

Just my thoughts.
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