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Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=27674		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Thurin [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
Sorry, I promise I'll stop posting in the Beginners forum as soon as I stop being rubbish at this game. I'm in the middle of converting/re-posing some High Elves, and I'd like to ask a question before I go much further. I've seen a number of army lists that equip 100% of their archers with spears, so that they can fight in the second rank of the warbands. Has this become the orthodox way of doing things? It seems awfully dull to have to convert every single last one of my archers into spearchers.

I would be much happier camping my archers in difficult terrain, separate from my melee fighters. I forsee problems though, since fewer spears would mean my warriors would be easier to outnumber.
Author:  Pandarchon [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
Man rule of cool should always take precedence, some day you will stop playing this game but i hope youll still have these awesome models
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
Converting ain't hard, just glue a spear on their backs next to the quiver. Personally yes I would always give archers spears with any left over points - otherwise they won't be as much use as everyone else once lines meet. This is twice as true when playing good because you can't shoot into combat and thus your kinda forced to throw your archers into combat eventually anyway.
Author:  Gondorian Captain [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
I go the other way and give them blades, mostly because I think it looks that little bit more pleasing. Even an archer without blade or spear can go into combat, an attack is an attack after all. Just depends where you want them to be fighting.
Author:  Hodush [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
I would only give archers spears when there is extra points lying around. You should be able to position your troops so that the archers aren't too far away from the action, so I don't see the real need for them to have spears, but it may come in handy.

I wouldn't put the spears in the hands, just on the back along with the quiver as mentioned. You can also give spearmen bows fairly easily to get some variety if you are intent on doing this. If you want to sculpt a quiver it is really just a box with a slightly tapered edge. Sculpt some cloth over where the arrows would be so you don't have to do the fletching.

Keep on posting, no problems asking questions!
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
I never do it, mostly because I'm too lazy to do the conversion, plus it means having an extra set of models. I did try it once, just stating that all my bows have spears, but I'm not sure it made a tactical difference in the end. Once you're out of targets to shoot you have to get your bowmen into the fray, and once you do that you might as well give them spear support with the other spears you have.
Author:  Coenus Scaldingus [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
As the troops are supplied as spear+shield, you can also use the archers in front instead, especially against S4 troops. Not a good idea against S3 (or 5) of course.

Alternatively, switch to Hobbits or Dwarves. Not being able to take spears and bows together makes the choice a lot easier. ;) Looks better too, as while the 'stick a spear on his back' may be very practical, it's not especially aesthetically pleasing. Prefer to have spearmen with a quiver and bow on their back than the other way around.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
I don't do it, mainly because I think it's often used as a cheap/lazy way of getting more spearmen.

I really dislike the cocktail sticks blu-tacked to the back thing and even when complete spears are glued on the back I hardly ever think they look good. In fact they normally look like exactly what they are, a spear glued to the back of a model, there's very rarely any attempt to convert a holster or strap or anything.

If I were ever to do it I'd try and get some bow and quivers to glue to the backs of my spearmen rather than the other way around.

it's worth pointing out that all of this comes from a visual/fluffy perspective rather than a tactical one. I'm primarily a visual player, 99% of the time I try to play with everything painted and I just never think the spears stuck on the back look right. I pay a lot of money for my figures and don't want to ruin the effect by sticking cocktail sticks etc. on the back. For me, any in-game advantage you get isn't worth the damage to the aesthetic of the figures, but that's just me. It's the reason my Groblog will always stay on his giant 'shoot me' rock (I've seen a couple at tournaments cut off and glued to the base) and my eagles are about 10 inches off the table in trees, they get shot like nobody's business but they look cool :D

Tactically, sure, why not, if you've got a few points left over then chucking a couple of spears onto archers is a good way to use them up.
Author:  Pindergorn [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
Personally I would just use my archers to flank the enemy battle lines and charge their spear support.
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
King Ondoher wrote:
Personally I would just use my archers to flank the enemy battle lines and charge their spear support.


Why charge spear support when you can shoot them instead?
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
whafrog wrote:
King Ondoher wrote:
Personally I would just use my archers to flank the enemy battle lines and charge their spear support.


Why charge spear support when you can shoot them instead?


Never were truer words spoken 8) Low risk that.

I don't tend to arm my archers with spears mainly because I CBA to convert them properly. Like Dr G, a cocktail stick stuck to the back just looks Devlan Mud and is a kick in the nuts to those who spend time lovingly converting their models.
Author:  Thurin [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
whafrog wrote:
Why charge spear support when you can shoot them instead?


Woah! Can good archers shoot at warriors who are supporting a fight with spears? I would have assumed that constituted firing into a fight.

I should have made it clear that my problem is not that I find the conversions difficult to make. Starting from elves with shield and spear, I've taken away the shield and given them a bow to hold in their left hand. I've also been converting plastic swordsmen from The Last Alliance to be holding a spear, and then gluing a bow and quiver to their backs. I don't think I'll give any archers spears on their backs, that looks unnatural to me, but your mileage may vary.

It's not that the conversions are hard to do. I just think that the un-altered archers are more aesthetically pleasing. High elves are already an army that suffers from a limited selection of models and profiles. I would prefer to utilize archers as a distinct sort of unit, interracting with terrain and engaging the enemy in a manner separate from my formation of melee troops.
Author:  Erunion [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
I just see no need for it. Hold down objectives and shoot while you can. If you have to get stuck in, you're well past the point of shieldwall tactics, so I don't really see spears adding all that much to the army.

That is for normal armies. The Grey Company would be one exception.
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
Thurin wrote:
whafrog wrote:
Why charge spear support when you can shoot them instead?

Woah! Can good archers shoot at warriors who are supporting a fight with spears? I would have assumed that constituted firing into a fight.


They can indeed. Spear supporters are not technically in the fight, despite the somewhat confusing wording in the Hobbit rules.
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
I always thought it was a waste because if you really need that archer to engage in close combat youre probably already in a bad bad situation and most of the match youve spent 2 sometimes 3 pts on a model.
Author:  Coenus Scaldingus [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
Don't forget there are some troops that will add something extra to a fight: Rangers of Gondor or Citadel Guard supporting Warriors of Minas Tirith for example. Not doing much with those archers while they could be helping out in combat is quite a waste, especially if it's a large proportion of your force. Besides, Rangers are just as capable as spear support as for example Warriors of Arnor (F4, S3), but using them instead of other Warriors to support those leaves more tough (D6) guys for the frontline. Many archers are just as good in combat as their melee-oriented brothers-in-arms, although there are some exceptions of course (best to keep those orc trackers at a safe distance, unless mounted on wargs or if you want them to die for whatever reason).
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Don't forget there are some troops that will add something extra to a fight: Rangers of Gondor or Citadel Guard supporting Warriors of Minas Tirith for example.


Good point, and that's how I use them, but it's because they already come pre-modelled, plus their higher Fight is sorely needed by WoMT.
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
Yeah thats why Ive probably always overlooked this idea.I dont really play Gondor.
Author:  Balin son of Fundin [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
From my very limited experience spear archers seem to be pretty good! ...but thats just my limited experience talking
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Spear Archers vs. Stand-alone Archers
I have given some of my Goblin archers spears for back-up. They performed well enough when I used them. The extra versatility for the otherwise relatively useless Goblin bowmen was worth it, I think. Admittedly though, I haven't played since the Hobbit rules came out and nerfed shooting.
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