Hi, I need some clarification of supporting attacks,

for example- do they count as charging into combat so specifically:

If a friendly ally is in combat with a terror causing model, in order to support that ally with a spear or pike does the supporting model need to make a terror test.

Additionally, if that model had both a throwing weapon and a spear and they were to support an ally already in combat would they be able to use their throwing weapon on the way in, or does it not count as charging.

Finally, I there any rule to stop say a goblin with spear supporting a dragon or other monster to give it +1 attack, it seems silly a goblin pointing a stick from underneath the dragons/balrog etc's legs.. but I couldn't find a rule saying otherwise.

Thanks,
C-Hydra

Curtis and I happened to be reading the rules this morning - it's only the lead warrior who has to take the courage test, the supporting warrior is just following along in his wake...
Paul

I don't think spear/pike models are allowed to support a monster/cavalry. Says in the rulebook under spears.

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The main point to remember is the supporting model is not actually in the fight. Remembering this helps clarify a lot of things. He is supporting his ally, but is not affected by requirements to be in the fight, nor its outcome. He can also be shot without risk to the other models he's supporting. So:

No, they don't have to make a Courage roll for Terror.
No, they can't use their throwing weapon in the Move phase (when they move to support) because they aren't moving into combat (and they couldn't anyway if they were Good). They *might* be able to use their throwing weapon in the Shoot phase, but I doubt it. The rules specifically say they can't shoot a bow and use a spear for support in the same turn, I'm pretty sure the same ruling would apply to throwing weapons.
No, a model can't support another model with a base size larger than its own. This rule is in the war gear/spears section.

I believe it has to be the same size? A cave troll can't support a normal goblin....I think.

No, the base of support cannot be smaller tahn but is can be larger than, a Cave Troll can support a Goblin, but a Goblin can't support a Cave Troll.

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For the throwing weapon / spear fiasco you can:

Lets say we have a Corsair with spear (TW as standard) that goes in to support a friend with his spear could actually throw a throwing weapon into close combat with a chance of hitting his friend as one he is in base contact with the friend so can fire round him and two is Evil, he is not part of the combat so can shoot and it doesn't say you can't shoot into a combat from any distance so it is doable. I know a rule exists regarding spear and bow but not one for TW, so for Evil it is possible, though it sounds a little like Outriders and the Royal Standard, realistically it is a bit off but as no rule says you can't then someone will do it.

'FireKnife'

Not sure if I'm reading your example correct but if so then I think you have some details wrong. A Throwing Weapon is thrown at the model you are charging, when you are 1" away. If you are moving in to support then you are not charging a model and you cannot throw a TW. Perhaps if you were charging a separate model, threw your TW, killed the model you were charging and continue your move to support a different combat that would probably be legal. Not likely, but legal.

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

MIght well have misunderstood you beowolf as you will surely know this better than us with your woodelves but...
it says in the rule book that "a model can throw its weapon in the shoot phase" ... "alternatively a model can throw its weapon at the foe it is about to fight". The former is pretty much like any other shooting (altho with no move penalty, and six inch range). It's the latter where the attacker stops momentarily one inch away, that is done on the charge. It implies that in the former case, you can throw a Throwing Weapon, even if not charging.

Correct. In the shoot phase you can use it as a short range shooting weapon (evil can shoot into combat, etc.). FireKnife's post left me unsure though if he meant Evil could throw the TW into the combat while moving to Support.

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Nope but they can move to support in the Move phase, throw in the Shoot phase (if Evil only and the aren't then charged themselves) and then support in the Fight phase. No rule says otherwise as you the spear model is not in combat, but is touching a friendly base so can shoot around him and into the combat if they are both Evil. Personally i would allow it as you are still taking a risk on the Evil behalf and could end up with a dead Evil model, no combat and the enemy is just sat out of combat unscathed as the spear and throwing weapon model killed his mate.

'FireKnife'

Just a side note but when I play Evil I often enjoy shooting into combat...just because I can. I am amazed how deadly accurate an Orc bow is when it hits your own models. My Uruk Scouts regularly put a '6' into a heavily armored and shielded fighting Uruk Hai on their own team. Very impressive.

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Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I thought it mentioned somewhere that a model can only support if it hasn't shot/

++edit++

Yeah it does, " A spearman cannot offer support if he himself is engaged in close combat or if he has shot in the shoot phase"

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Strange can't find that rule in mine.

Edit: Actually found it, though could be pandantic and argue that a throwing weapon isn't a 'shot'

'FireKnife'

Throwing Weapons have two "modes".

1. It can be used in the Shoot Phase as a 6" range shot. This absolutely counts as a "shot". The major advantage of a Throwing Weapon used in this phase is that you are not limited by movement. In other words, you can do a full move and still "shoot" your Throwing Weapon. As such if you use your Throwing Weapon in the Shoot phase you are bound by all other restrictions of a model that shot.

2. It can be used during your charge of an enemy model. When you are about 1" away from the model you are charging you can throw your weapon at that model. If you kill the model with the throw then you can alter your charge to another target model. Since moving to Support is NOT a charge you cannot use your Throwing Weapon if you are moving to Support.

The only way I can see a Throwing Weapon and Supporting coming into play in the same turn would be the following scenario:

Model with Throwing Weapon does nothing during the Shoot Phase. When they move, they charge an enemy model. When they are 1" away from that target they throw their spear/dagger/axe/whatever. They luck out on the rolls and kill the target. They then shift the rest of their move to support a friendly model.

The examples for charging a second model after you kill one with your Throwing Weapon do not specifically say you can move to support, but I do not believe they specifically say you MUST charge a second model. I believe (not having them right here) they indicate you may finish your move, including charging a second model if you choose. I don't believe anyone would argue against moving to support (especially since this kind of situation is not likely to come up more than once or twice per game at the most).

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Goblins are incredibly good shots when shooting at their own guys. One time, a group of gob archers shot a group that was in combat. Killed 2 of mine (after hitting 3) for none of his (after hitting 2).

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Well, you know what they say, 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer.' Ergo, the goblins and uruks must not have been friends... seeing as one with a mite of common sense would shoot the closest enemy.

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lol indeed. Bet it must be awful if they kill only your own troops. Best to shoot as much as you can before lines clash.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

@Gothmog- No, most of the time my archers kill the enemy- seeing as I usually only shoot into combat with my 'sacrificial offerings'- those poor orcs that get to hold people in place or distract six or so enemy models. Or those things, like D7+ that can take it.

As for the use of spears with throwing weapons, it seems like it is pretty much wrapped up! At least, all issues have been covered that I have encountered (and playing the Silvan Elves often, I run into these issues).

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

I did one better. During a siege I shot my Mordor siege bow at an elf on the wall. Scored a hit (the first after about 7 turns of missing). Then I rolled a 1 on the Scatter chart and did not realise that my Mordor troll was hammering less than 8cm away on the gate below. Rolled a 6 to wound pinning my own troll to the door. The door should have at least taken damage from the blow! Was quite a hilarious moment I can tell you.

But getting this thread back to the original message regarding spears. If a spearman is not part of the fight for all intents and purposes does this mean that:
- He can be shot at by an enemy model without fear of the shooter 'shooting into combat'
- He can be compelled away from the fight
- A combat does not get the benefit of a banner's re-roll if only the supporting spearman is in range of the banner
- The spearman has to test for courage for force being broken even if he was supporting a warrior in combat at the beginning of his move phase.
- The spearman does not get knocked over by a charging cavalry model if he was only supporting the model being charged
- While supporting a model with his spear, if a banner-bearer in base contact is killed, he can stop supporting the other model, drop all his gear, and pick up the banner.

Also if a spearman is supporting a model but that model then gets transfixed, does the transfixed model still get an extra attack? I have played it that the transfixed model does get an extra attack because the spear can still poke around him but the transfixed model will not strike blows. Thus the transfixed model would have a better chance of winning the fight with a spear support but would still not strike blows because the spearman's fight stats do not actually come into play - he is merely adding an attack to the supported model.