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Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=22173		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  ScarpeIron [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
Hi all,
On page 6 of LoME it basically states for every 2 warriors there can be 1 archer.

So for 33 warriors (not including heros) that would be 16 archers for a total force (again...w/o heros) of 49 warriors. ..BUT.. if we do the 33% rule, I come up with a potential 10 archers. I feel I am doing the 33% calculations wrong. Can someone write out the actual formula for me, because I am feeling really stupid at the moment.

Thanks -Scar
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
Looks like you're doing 33% of 33 warriors (which is 11 archers), when you need to be doing 33% of 49 warriors (which is 16 archers).

BTW, I normally don't comment on people's avatars (unless they are cool), but in this case...really? I mean...really??? :) There's just something about that avatar that triggers the gag reflex, taking something beautiful and polluting it. Like pouring a Coke on a van Gogh, tracking mud through the Taj Mahal, tossing sand on a mahogany table, or dipping a beautifully painted Boromir Captain of the White Tower into creosote.

...no offense... :oops:
Author:  ScarpeIron [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
ah I see it now. From the beginning I have been taking the amount of warriors without bows and then factoring in how many archers I could field. I have been shooting myself in the foot.

So, I should be taking "x" amount of warriors I can afford prior to actually equipping them and out of that amount, then do the math to see how many can become archers.

Sadness. And thank you.

as for the Avatar...yeah, it makes me taste my own bile ever time I see it....but I promised to compete in a month painting contest (See WIP: "Paint me an Army" thread) and lost.

-Scar
Author:  lorderkenbrand [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
haha whafrog is right, btw i think that avatar is punishment for failing to meet the One Ring paint me an army deadline. Bit harsh I'd say :P
Author:  whafrog [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
LOL, I had no idea. What a terrible fate... :)
Author:  Dead Marsh Spectre [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
lorderkenbrand wrote:
haha whafrog is right, btw i think that avatar is punishment for failing to meet the One Ring paint me an army deadline. Bit harsh I'd say :P

a punishment well deserved lol :wink:
Author:  lorderkenbrand [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
haha :rofl:
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
I was about to enter the friendly comp myself just as an extra motivation for pouring on the effort on my Haradrim, but once the punishment was announced I immediately reconsidered. Some pains are just too great.
Author:  Draugluin [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
ScarpeIron wrote:
ah I see it now. From the beginning I have been taking the amount of warriors without bows and then factoring in how many archers I could field. I have been shooting myself in the foot.

So, I should be taking "x" amount of warriors I can afford prior to actually equipping them and out of that amount, then do the math to see how many can become archers.

Not sure what you mean by the second line, but you can basically have 2 non-archers for every 1 archer. So you can have 22 swordsmen for every 11 archers (if you have 33 models)
UGH, that avatar is disgusting. I bet Sauron would have rather the Ring be destroyed than have to look at that everyday.
Author:  Angularity [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
I know this one has probably been done to death, but please humour me. Does it wreck the game if the 33% rule is ignored? It fits within the books and the films if there are lots of bows in Rohan armies, for instance. Has anyone paid comparison games to test how the game is improved/spoiled by ignoring this rule? Of course I'm talking about friendly games only, I can't be doing with competitions.
Author:  hithero [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
Well, the Harad sourcebook has all the scenarios with 50% bows as thats how the models come packaged so it shouldn't be a problem, but it may make some scenarios difficult.
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
But those scenarios with Harad at 50% would be balanced. If it's a random scenario it could be a big problem.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
Angularity wrote:
I know this one has probably been done to death, but please humour me. Does it wreck the game if the 33% rule is ignored? It fits within the books and the films if there are lots of bows in Rohan armies, for instance. Has anyone paid comparison games to test how the game is improved/spoiled by ignoring this rule? Of course I'm talking about friendly games only, I can't be doing with competitions.


As mentioned, having scenario-specific exceptions almost always works out because the designers / play testers specifically intended a larger bow count. But in friendly point matches you really should stick to the 33% rule. You and your opponent may elect to try 50% or such now and then but I think the player on the receiving end is going to appreciate the 33% when all is said and done unless they get something to compensate (an extra 15% points or such).
Author:  Angularity [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
But this is why it baffles me. Bows cost points so they're either underpriced, or there's something else wrong with the game. They certainly don't seem so powerful in the hands of my orcs or Rohirrim.
Author:  Draugluin [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
My group ignores the 33% rule, but we also don't abuse bows (mostly). During a siege, fully half the points of the attacking army had bows (over half the models, an Easterling with a bow is cheaper than an Uruk-hai, after all) and it threw of the balance quite a bit. He lost pretty bad.
Author:  BlackMist [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
Angularity wrote:
I know this one has probably been done to death, but please humour me. Does it wreck the game if the 33% rule is ignored? It fits within the books and the films if there are lots of bows in Rohan armies, for instance. Has anyone paid comparison games to test how the game is improved/spoiled by ignoring this rule? Of course I'm talking about friendly games only, I can't be doing with competitions.

Please allow Wood Elves on Legolas and a Wood Elf Horde to play more than 33% and you won't find a way to beat them. 33% is even too much for some of the broken Wood Elf GT forces people come up with. Grey Company is an example of breaking the bow limit, but it still has some clever restriction.
Author:  cereal_theif [ Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
We tested the lack of 33% limit back before Legions.
It was a place where Khand and Rohan were good horseback riders.
BUT the rule was introduced to STOP so many dangerous(yet boring) armies.
Full crossbow urak armies.
Full bow Wood elf
Full bow high elf
Full bow citadel guard
Full bow ranger army (no need for RoN or DoN)
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
Well, you can get away without the limit if you aren't a complete jerk about it, like the above armies.
Author:  BlackMist [ Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
Problem is that if you were to enter a tournament then it is unavoidable to see people trying to stretch every rule to it's full potential. 33% rule is only for competitive games and for general balance reasons. If you're playing with a friend, then NOBODY is forcing you to use up to 33%, you can have 50%, 75%, even whole bow armies. Just don't bring them to tournaments because of balance issues. If you allow unlimited Spider Queens, then people will bring several (as proven by the 2008 singles and doubles GTs where 1st place at singles had 5 SQ, 2nd had 3 and then on the doubles 1st place had 5, 4th place had 8). There are good reasons for limits and the number one reason is game balance.

I'll quote what I wrote in the 2nd post so that you can choose which thread to use for replying and keep inside that one:

Draugluin in the other thread wrote:
I'm ok with the WAY shooting works, just not how weak the bows themselves are. An arrow can kill a man much more easily than a spear would, but spear wielders have a better chance of wounding most of the time.


Standard Elf army at 700pts:
Legolas, +/- 66 Wood Elves
25 bow shots

Imagine playing vs a D5 Moria army at this moment with a 75 model limit:
Turn 1: 25 shots, 16 hits, 5 dead.
Turn 2: As above
By the time Goblins reach combat (it takes them about 5 turns at least if elves don't move and more if they move back) you have killed about 25-30, even more. At this point you have 67 models vs 45 and yours are of higher quality. Even a complete noob would win this game.

Now against D6 Army (Usually with about 60 models due to better troops)
Turn 1: 25 shots, 16 hits, 2.5 dead
Again about 4-5 turns of shooting before combat = 10-15 dead (on the higher side if the army includes a lot of D4/5 spearmen)
That leaves you with 66 against about 45-50 - HUGE advantage.


Bows may SEEM weak when used in small numbers, like 5 or 6, but once you reach the proper 1/3 of the force and you build a solid force, then shooting is one of the most influential parts of the game. In many ways people should thank GW for the Shadow Lord because before he appeared the game was very much based on shooting with Hobbits and Elves roaming and destroying everything. SL cuts on shooting slightly, but there are ways to get around him and he can't feature is small point armies too often. If you were to play some big tournaments you'd find out that the bows are as balanced and as good as they should be.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bow Limit: 33% ruling...
As someone that has played a LOT of SBG games with Wood Elf armies, I will tell you that maxing out at 33% is required for the army to be competative against Easterlings, Uruks, Morannons, Goblin Hordes, etc. If things go fair with the dice, and your opponent is smart in their use of terrain and such, you will cause reasonable damage to your opponent's force but generally not "HUGE" advantage (again, you need a smart opponent and don't play on a huge open board). When you get into combat you should be able to have the numbers adjusted enough that your quality troops can handle the enemy...again if you play well.

But if I had a 50% bow limit then the following melee will be far more lopsidded. I couldn't even imagine a fun game in SBG with WEs at 100%. In WotR you can do 100% bows with WEs because bows are a little less effective for one, options exist for rapid closing for another, and because the game system results in generally slaughtered WE forces in melee. In SBG well played WEs can go toe-to-toe with the toughtest enemy army in melee so they only need to soften the enemy a little in advance.

If bows were more deadly than they are now in SBG then the 33% will prove too much for Elves, Men will be as strong as Elves are now, and even Goblin archers will be equal to Men are now. So you'd have to lower the limit more. If you raise the limit then forces with good archers now (Men or Elves) would turn into completely stand-off forces. The GC is a fine example of what happens with a higher bow limit. Even with the "limits" to army building a GC force they are well known as the most boring force to play against. The GC could be played like WEs (soften enemy for a few turns then engage in melee) but because they CAN be such a bow-heavy stand-off force it is very easy to slip into that play method.

If you want to adjust something locally, try to find a compromise on bow limits based on bow quality. Keep Elves and Crossbows at 33%. Allow Men to go to 50% and Orc-bows to 75% for example. But I think in the end enough games will show that the current bow strengths and limits all work well to model the style of play SBG tries to model.
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