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woodland terrain
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=22252		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  fritskuhntm [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  woodland terrain
I just lost a game of Reconnoitre against my dad: he thinks models can move directly trough a tree.
here's the situation: I had a line of orcs with a tree in the middle, my dad moves three galadrim knights through the tree behind my lines.
I say: that's not possible! he says: the exact position of the trees in a wooded area doesn't matter. implying that models can just walk directly through
a tree or stand in tree!

TELL MY DAD HE'S WRONG!!!
Author:  Dînadan [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Your dad is wrong - tell him to look at p19. One of the boxs describing terrain specifically states that trees block movement. Also, another arguement against his claim that the exact position of trees doesn't matter is that the shooting rules (specificall the In The Way rolls) reply on terrain being where the representing mini actually stands.
Author:  Bastion.HUN [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Well, its depends on. If the tree is a giant tree with 5-10 diameter, then you can go trough.
But if the tree is a tiny tree, then your dad is right. A woodland area is one object. It has edges, but the inside doesnt matter. If we count with every tiny details, then the game is not enyojable.
Author:  LonelyKnight [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
He is wrong indeed
He is mixing up concepts. The exact position of trees in a wooded area doesn't matter when defining the area that is counted as dificult terrain. That is true, it's commonly defined by a base to which the trees are stuck so there is no confusion.
However each tree in itself is an object that blocks both movement and line of sight. Unless you are a balrog or Sauron, then you could quite possibly jump over the tree :P.
The tree is physically there. SBG is not a game where you get bonus x for woods, you need to have a tree blocking the LOS to get the in the way bonus if you are in a wood. The position of the trees matters.
Author:  fritskuhntm [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
thanks people! I'll show him right now :twisted:
Author:  whafrog [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
He's wrong because everything in this game is wysiwyg (what you see is what you get). It's the same for warrior equipment, line of sight, and terrain movement.
Author:  fritskuhntm [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Argh! the old man is still not convinced: he says that the block of tekst on page 19 is only an example of defining the movement penalty.
:shock: :? :shock: :? :shock: :?
Author:  Dînadan [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
fritskuhntm wrote:
Argh! the old man is still not convinced: he says that the block of tekst on page 19 is only an example of defining the movement penalty.
:shock: :? :shock: :? :shock: :?

Umm...what.

The box I'm refering to says:
TheRuleBook wrote:
An area of woodland or copse. The trees block movement or line of sight, and the undergrowth of the base can count as difficult terrain.


Emphasis mine.

As you can see it clearly states that you can't move through the actual trees, and the movement penalty aplies to moving through the area arround the trees inside what has been defined as the woods/copse/forrest/etc.
Author:  LonelyKnight [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Text from page 19: "An area of woodland or copse. The trees block movement or line of sight, and the undergrowth of the base can count as difficult terrain."
There's no IF/CAN around the tree part. The trees block movement, period. The difficult terrain for the base is the only optional part.
So tell me, where did he read he could pass through trees? As far as we can tell this is the only entry in the book that discusses trees and movement. And the only other entry we could find with trees at all was in the shooting section and they still considered tree positioning relevant.

Look at the obstacles listed above. You can't even run through large bushes, you need to jump over them if they are taller than half the model's height.
Author:  Draugluin [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Bastion.HUN wrote:
Well, its depends on. If the tree is a giant tree with 5-10 diameter, then you can go trough.
But if the tree is a tiny tree, then your dad is right. A woodland area is one object. It has edges, but the inside doesnt matter. If we count with every tiny details, then the game is not enyojable.

It doesn't depend on anything. Not only are you contradicting yourself, I understand you don't have that high a mastery of english, but you're saying that a tree is a tiny detail. Treebeard would beg to differ.
Author:  Rozinante [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
The rule (pg 81) says: "A Woodland Creature can move...through any wooded area classed as difficult terrain just as if he were in the open." It does not add, "..if he can find a path between the trees," or "unless it is too densely packed to pass through." If they players argee it is impassable, sure. But if they argee it is 'difficult terrain', then an elf should be able to pass through 'as if he were in the open'.

That is the rule. Should the rule be superseded by the description of difficult terrain on page 19? "Trees block movement" and are therefore classed as difficult terrain with a movement penality, which doesn't count for Woodland Creatures. Do we need to measure between every tree to see if a base passes?

On the 'realism' side; of course an elves cannot go through a tree trunk, but they are so agile that they pass between, around and under the branches of trees 'as if they were in the open', hence 'trees block movement', but not for an elf.

If a Galadhrim Knight is on one side of a copse of trees (classed as difficult terrien), the rule says he can move through it 'as if in the open', which is 12'/28cm from where he started.

I'll vote for you anyway, though, because old men---especially parents---just don't understand that kids are always right.
Author:  LonelyKnight [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Seriously?
The tree isn't difficult terrain, it never was.
The undergrowth on the base of the forest is what makes it difficult terrain.
You CAN have trees alone, without any wooded area, in an open field. You still can't walk through the tree.
The Woodland Creature rule allows you to ignore dificult terrain, that's it.
How could you possibly see a conflict with what was written in page 19 when they clearly treat the base (the potencial dificult terrain that the Woodland Creature rule concerns) and the tree separatly?
Author:  Draugluin [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Rozinante wrote:
That is the rule. Should the rule be superseded by the description of difficult terrain on page 19? "Trees block movement"

Well duh. It doesn't say "trees block movement, unless..." nor does Woodland Creature say that "they can pass through impassable terrain if it's a tree.

Rozinante wrote:
On the 'realism' side; of course an elves cannot go through a tree trunk, but they are so agile that they pass between, around and under the branches of trees 'as if they were in the open', hence 'trees block movement', but not for an elf.


In that case they would need a climbing test.

Rozinante wrote:
If a Galadhrim Knight is on one side of a copse of trees (classed as difficult terrien), the rule says he can move through it 'as if in the open', which is 12'/28cm from where he started.


As has been said, the BRUSH around the base is the difficult terrain, the tree is an object that is ITW. If an arrow, which is VERY small and very fast, can't get through it, then how is an elf going to?
Author:  theavenger001 [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
There should be no argument. There is the BASE that defines the piece of 'woodland terrain'. Then there are the trees that make it look like woodland terrain. The base is rough terrain, if you want it to be. (half movement)
The trees are part of the terrain, imovable solid objects. Like a figure, you can't move through them. Can you move through castle walls? No, they're solid. Same with trees. A solid object, you can't have your figures base moving through it.

Hope that's clear.... :)
Author:  hithero [ Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Dads wrong :) Every model and terrain piece is WYSIWYG, elves can move through wooded difficult ground without penalty, but the tree still has to be circumnavigated.
Author:  Pindergorn [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Dads wrong, unless you're playing with houserules. I can see the logic in deciding trees do not block movement, only hinder it, to make for ease of play (particularly if the trees are detachable and have a defined base for the area of the woodland e.g. the Citadel woodlands) . But thats somethings which has to be agreed before the game.
Author:  lorderkenbrand [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Dads wrong is the consenus unless he is using an entire army of Elven Spectres in which case there will be a lot of swiping at thin air!
Author:  Oldman Willow [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Quote:
I'll vote for you anyway, though, because old men---especially parents---just don't understand that kids are always right.

:rofl: :rofl: Remember the Golden Rule!
Your Dad is right. A consensus is not relevant. Terrain is WYSWYG it blocks line of sight if it blocks LOS. It Blocks movement if it blocks movement. If you depicted a wood with a marker such as felt with a tree or two then the edge of the felt blocks line of sight and the base of the marker counts as difficult terrain.If you build a model wood then the rules for movement and line of sight will depend on your model. See the example below.

Image

You clearly can see that parts of the model block movement and LOS. Jump and or climb test are clearly necessary. There are lots of places on the model to place figures. I build my terrain so that players can take advantage of the detail.
The average model tree and base will not always block LOS or movement.It will depend on the model. Most will count as difficult ground and in the way. :P
Image Image

The Golden Rule,those with the gold make the rules.
Author:  lorderkenbrand [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
Oldmanwillow - consensus is right on this occassion though. You are basically saying what most on here are except that the Dad is right lol. He can't be right if he believes the rules allow for models to actually pass through trees (not wooded areas). If the 'trees' are in fact a wooded area and provide enough space to move through then he is right. We need the young man in question to clarify whether it was one tree or a number of trees.

Hithero has it spot on in my opinion, most on here hold the same view that

"Every model and terrain piece is WYSIWYG, elves can move through wooded difficult ground without penalty, but the tree still has to be circumnavigated."
Author:  Rozinante [ Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: woodland terrain
The Fleetfoot Special Rules says a Knight “treats woodland terrian as clear terrian for the purposes of movement.”---as if there were no trees to block movement. True?
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