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Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=22325		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  PippinMeatShield [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
Say you have the Witch King with Crown of Morgul and charges with his Steed, he wins the fight and wants to use his morgul blade. Does that mean if any of the 4 D6s if you roll a 4+ you insta-wound? or do you roll only 1 die
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
I think it's just one attack for the Morgul Blade, then you figure the rest out on their own.
Author:  MeatBoy1994 [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
Why 4 attacks, shouldn't he have 2? 1 attack, doubled for the foe being on the floor?
Author:  cereal_theif [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
Actually I see no reason it should not be 8 attacks. (looking at the rulebook and the mordor sourcebook)

Crown makes him 3 attacks +1 for charging steed
Knocks opponent over.
Morgul blade says declare before rolling to wound.
So I pick up my 4 diceI just won combat with and say "morgul blade, all attacks on *insert name*. He is knocked to ground so double each attacks to a total of 8 attacks"
Roll... boom

and for clarity I dont have to allocate all of these morgul attacks at one person so if in a random stroke of luck I won combat over 2 heroes with very little might I could laugh n split them
Author:  Battalia [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
it only says it may only be used once per game, not that it only can be used for one attack. As such, you should have 8 chances to wound with said blade, assuming your opponant is on foot, doesn't use fate, yadeh yadeh yadeh
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
MeatBoy1994 wrote:
Why 4 attacks, shouldn't he have 2? 1 attack, doubled for the foe being on the floor?


When given the Crown of Morgul he has 3 attacks. Add one for charging makes 4. Double for being knocked down = 8 attacks.
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
The morgul blade attacks would still have to be against a single target. It says can "only be used once", not once per game. However, since he doesn't attack with 8 attacks, it's just 4, but the attacks against trapped models are doubled, he can say 'this attack is going to this hero, who is knocked down. Now I will roll 2 dice (1 for the attack, 1 for the trapped bonus) and if one (or both) wounds, he's dead.'

For clarification, "only used once" means only once. The WK does NOT have 8 attacks if he wins a fight after charging with a horse. He has 4 attacks, so he can only target 4 different models, however, those models will be hit twice if they are knocked over.
Author:  oredds [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
I'm inclined to think that the Morgul blade would only be valid for a single attack. If you think about what happened on Weathertop, when the blade wounded Frodo, it broke. This would logically imply that once the blade has been used in an attack it is broken and useless. This attack would of course be doubled if striking against a prone model so effectively you would be rolling two dice to wound with the morgul blade - but any other attack would not have the use of the blade.

I think it depends a bit on how we conceptualise 'Attacks' in the attacks value. Does 3 attacks mean 3 separate strikes performed in the time that a regular warrior could make just one attack? Or does it mean a single assualt that, by virtue of the hero's superior training and wargear, is far harder to withstand? If it is the latter conceptualisation then the Morgul Blade should be good for all attacks. However, the fact that a hero can split his attacks among multiple opponents suggests a flurry of blows rather than a single devastating strike. Aargh damn these grey areas. The rules do say to declare the Morgul Blade before rolling to wound so I guess it follows that the blade would be good for all rolls to wound. I just can't make up my mind! :roll:
Author:  BlackMist [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
WK gets to use Morgul Blade on all strikes during single turn. Here's why:

You may not choose to change a weapon in between strikes - ie. you can't swap between hand weapon and 2-handed in between strikes. On the same basis Morgul Blade HAS to be used on all strikes.

People are confusing what attacks mean. Model rolls dice to win combat on based on the number of ATTACKS it has. Once it won the combat he makes STRIKES based on the number of attacks. STRIKES are doubled for models on the ground. Model can target up to x models, where x is the number of attacks, but each ATTACK has 2 STRIKES.

So if WK had only 1 attack and enemy was on the ground, he would direct the attack at that model, resulting in 2 STRIKES. It would still be only 1 ATTACK that he makes.
Author:  lorderkenbrand [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
oredds wrote:
I'm inclined to think that the Morgul blade would only be valid for a single attack. If you think about what happened on Weathertop, when the blade wounded Frodo, it broke. This would logically imply that once the blade has been used in an attack it is broken and useless. This attack would of course be doubled if striking against a prone model so effectively you would be rolling two dice to wound with the morgul blade - but any other attack would not have the use of the blade.


Lets face it the Crown rule hasn't been around long, it's a GW rule and obviously doesn't sit well with the Morgul Blade rule. There is no clarification on the GW website, it is a grey area. However if you think back to the original rules, it was designed for the one attack (2 if knock down applies). It was meant for the one 'attack' Witchking, therefore I would say you can't use the Morgul Blade for 2 attacks (4 if knock down applies) or the 4 attacks (8 if knock down applies). Choose an attack and declare you are using Morgul Blade before attacking, one dice for standard rolls (2 for knock downs), roll as normal for the other attacks. That is how you roll for two-handed weapons in combats etc, distinguish which is which
Author:  Raukov [ Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
BlackMist wrote:
You may not choose to change a weapon in between strikes - ie. you can't swap between hand weapon and 2-handed in between strikes. On the same basis Morgul Blade HAS to be used on all strikes.

Yeah, this is a pretty convincing argument imo.
Author:  davard74 [ Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
The FAQ released for Ruin of Arnor says this.

Q. Page 19: If the Witch King uses the Morgul blade on the turn he charges while mounted, do all his attacks that turn count as Morgul Blade attacks?

A. Yes.
Author:  Raukov [ Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
Yeah, while RoA is obviously now obsolete, that makes the writers' intent crystal clea; in the absense of anything to contradict it there's no reason to assume the intended use of the blade has changed. This seems pretty concrete.
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
Ok then, that makes it official.
Author:  lorderkenbrand [ Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
Davard - well found! That is what I was basically saying in my post, "it was designed for the one attack (2 if knock down applies)"

I don't think it is a matter of swapping weapons, the WK has two hands and they are presumably pretty strong (Flail and sword combo). But as oredds has pointed out the blade brakes after inflicting the 'mortal wound' on Frodo. Distinguish which roll(s) are for the Morgul Blade and which are for his normal hand-weapon.
Author:  Raukov [ Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
lorderkenbrand wrote:
as oredds has pointed out the blade brakes after inflicting the 'mortal wound' on Frodo. Distinguish which roll(s) are for the Morgul Blade and which are for his normal hand-weapon.

That's a background detail there isn't any rule for, though. If he can make multiple attacks with the blade on account of charging while mounted, that sets the precedent as far as the rules are concerned. RAW I don't see any reason he shouldn't be able to make all 4 attacks with it.

They really do need to clarify "used once", though.
Author:  lorderkenbrand [ Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
The Ruin of Arnor was written before the Crown of Morgul rule was introduced so unless there is clarification in the new Warbands books I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Obviously the Witch King shouldn't be allowed to roll 8 auto-killing rolls to wound assuming he is mounted, has Morgul Blade and Crown of Morgul. He could take out multiple enemy heroes in the same turn. Luckily it is only once per game so in larger games it won't make too much of a difference. In 600pt games he looks overpowered!
Author:  rififivos [ Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
lorderkenbrand wrote:
The Ruin of Arnor was written before the Crown of Morgul rule was introduced

Agreed but consider that a Fell Beast was always a part of his options which IMO is much more leathal than CoM. So as long as it isn't FAQed otherwise I find the RoA FAQ pretty much conclusive.
Author:  Syrath101 [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
Believe when you roll for attacks in any situation apart from the enemy model being on the ground or being mounted you only get one Morgul Blade attack and if you have the Crown of Morgul, the rest of your attacks are just normal.
Author:  davard74 [ Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Morgul Blade and multiple attacks
rififivos wrote:
lorderkenbrand wrote:
The Ruin of Arnor was written before the Crown of Morgul rule was introduced

Agreed but consider that a Fell Beast was always a part of his options which IMO is much more leathal than CoM. So as long as it isn't FAQed otherwise I find the RoA FAQ pretty much conclusive.


Agreed.

Also with the new books some points have changed, and some models have gotten some different abilities, but there have been no wargear changes I saw in reqgards to what they do. So a shield still gives +1 D, 2H weapons are still -1 to win +1 to wound etc.

So why would anyone think what they wrote for the RoA FAQ is changed for how the Morgul Blade worked, when nothing else did?
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