The One Ring :: View topic - Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?

Don't think you can hit the Beast when shooting and in combat as you measure from the beasts base as the crew are part of the beast model and not models in their own right like the Mumak & crew.

I tried mine for the first time this week. First up I agreed with my Radagast wielding opponent that the spell Panic Steed was uncastable for monsters on oval bases as that would be pointless. He did a nice job of immobilising him though.
I had the archers hitting on a 6, as that is what the shoot value for the entire model is, rather than the regular orc value which is slightly less. Is that right or wrong?
I think I was also doing Slam wrong. I thought it replaced cavalry charge bonuses but evidently not, which meant that everytime I failed to slam a man, he stood there and went toe to toe, rather than getting knocked to the ground etc.
I am also unsure how slam works on minis with more than one wound, and if someone could explain this then great.

Enterpreting the rules for this thing are more of a challenge than putting the actual model together which was hard enough in itself!

just noticed that in composition the great beast IS a monsterous mount and it is said in black and white! .. he gets extra attack and knocks things over on charging .. excellent ! .. also I noticed the mumak says that he is a mount for the haradrim chieftain riding him ! .. so it seems the mumak is too .. do people play him this way ? perhaps im just behind on that but anyway feel like im getting somewhere on this guy !

So why does the Beast model have a shoot value if you ignore it and go with the orcs? I assumed shooting would be slightly more difficult due to keeping balance within the howdah as the beast rumbles along.

The gorgoroth is a monstruous mount, so the rider can use the creatures stats as per usual, when your opponent strikes at it, he can choose to either attack the rider, or mount, if he attacks and kills the rider another orc automatically takes over (meaning you can kill multiple riders).

There are a few problems with it though.... like being knocked over. Things like Call Winds from the elf casters.. How does that work? I assumed all the orcs fell out, took damage and then the beast needed courage checks or fled as per a usual mount.

So why does the Beast model have a shoot value if you ignore it and go with the orcs?

Dezartfox wrote:

so are you suggesting the the 1 orc controlling him joins any h2h combat he is in or all of the orcs do ?

are you the guy that made that awesome stone giant for DMS? .. great work if it is!

Every single model has a shoot value even things like Giant Spiders and Wild Wargs.

tlotrsbg wrote:

Dezartfox wrote:

so are you suggesting the the 1 orc controlling him joins any h2h combat he is in or all of the orcs do ?

Just the one guy controlling it

It's the orc fighting remember, he can just substitute his stats for those of the beast.

tlotrsbg wrote:

are you the guy that made that awesome stone giant for DMS? .. great work if it is!

Yes I am. Cheers.

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Every single model has a shoot value even things like Giant Spiders and Wild Wargs.

Ah, that must be a new supplement thing. About one third of the models in the ORB do not have a shoot value.

Author:	tlotrsbg [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:16 am ]
Post subject:	Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
most rules in SBG imo are brilliant and work very well with little mistakes and are pretty straight forward without problems but the Beast of Gorgoroth ! ? ok where do I start ... hmmm ill do a list of questions about him and if anyone knows or wants to guess the answer please do 1: do you need to pay the points for the 10 orcs on his back!! ? it implies that you dont but this would make the beast effectivly only 65 points! after deducting the 60 points for the orcs! it has troll like stats with an extra wound impact hits etc .. thats too cheap! ? no ? 2: If you kill the beast and the orcs survive the fall do they increase your count of models for the break point? .. it stresses that theres the only counts as one rule for bows and models in the force!? 3: Slam! .. will this also hit friendly units already in combats if the beast joins the fight? .. actually looking at it now it says contacted models so I have just answered this for myself .. just dont contact your own models at least thats one answered! 4: when in h2h combat ... do the orcs fight in the combat ? or are they simply sorta immune from h2h fights until the beast is dead?. perhaps the low courage is the key .. ignore him and kill the rest of the army ? if he counts as 1 model its kind of a disadvantage as the model count and break point will be lower .. maybe this balances the cheap cost? shame about the confusion as the model is awesome imo although too expensive

Author:	cal585 [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
1. The Orcs are included in the cost. They are not worth as much as standard Orcs because they can't voluntarily leave the Howdah. In fact, the only thing they do is give your Great Beast 9 shots, on the low strength and accuracy of the Orc Bow. When I gave it a go, the Orcs didn't actually achieve much, maybe a lucky wound or two a turn at most. Sure you gain control of them when the Great Beast dies, but a fair few of them are likely to be killed during its death anyway and anything that can chop through the Great Beast can take out a few archers without too much difficulty. The Slam hit is quite useful but by no means an instant wound. You only get 1 shot at it compared to the Mumak's 3 (I think it has 3?) and if failed then you're tied up in combat. It's useful against warriors but heroes can kill it fairly easily. Even Captains have a higher fight value and then 1 6 and you win the fight and suddenly it is in trouble, particularly with such a large base size making it easy to trap (giving you 4 strikes from the Captain plus other warriors you have trapping it). Also the lack of hero means it can be tied up before it gets to Slam, if there's no supporting hero to call a Heroic Move, unlike the Mumak who can contest such rolls with it's Commander. 2. I'm not really sure on this point, but I played it that while the Beast only counted as 1 for the purposes of Warbands and bow limit, it counted as 11 for the purposes of break point. I'm not sure on the official ruling but my opponents didn't mind this as any extra benefit I gained from increased army size was lost just as quickly when the thing died. I would be interested in finding out a proper answer if someone has one. 3. We compared to the Mumak rules for working out what it could or couldn't do. It is essentially a mini-Mumak. Half the price but without half the advantages. It doesn't stampede and can move how it wants (rather than a straight line) but gets less attacks on lower strength for Slam/Trample. If moving into base contact with a friendly model it can either Slam it in an attempt to keep moving or stop. When I played it, I had to move it first before my other models to make sure they were out of the way. 4. The Orcs are on top of the Howdah and not in base contact, therefore they can't contribute. The spear model is useless unless it survives a fall. The advantage is that the Orcs can still fire down (or throw rocks) at the models in combat. Good for removing pesky spears, but you risk shooting your own Beast if you aim for the actual combat (though chances are you're unlikely to wound the Beast with str 2). They can still be targeted by bow fire, but get an in the way roll from the Howdah (or so we played it). In my limited experience, the Great Beast was a fun, strong unit but not overpowered and needed to be supported to do well. It costs more than a troll but is less likely to hold its own in combat, but has additional options in the Slam rule before combat and the ability to shoot.

Author:	GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
I agree with cal585, though I wouldn't have used as many words. This is all I can think to add. 1. it's not too cheap. 2. probably. 3. and 4. read Mumakil.

Author:	tlotrsbg [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
ok thanks for your input guys

Author:	hithero [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
Don't think you can hit the Beast when shooting and in combat as you measure from the beasts base as the crew are part of the beast model and not models in their own right like the Mumak & crew.

The One Ring http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/

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Author:	Ukfreddybear [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
I tried mine for the first time this week. First up I agreed with my Radagast wielding opponent that the spell Panic Steed was uncastable for monsters on oval bases as that would be pointless. He did a nice job of immobilising him though. I had the archers hitting on a 6, as that is what the shoot value for the entire model is, rather than the regular orc value which is slightly less. Is that right or wrong? I think I was also doing Slam wrong. I thought it replaced cavalry charge bonuses but evidently not, which meant that everytime I failed to slam a man, he stood there and went toe to toe, rather than getting knocked to the ground etc. I am also unsure how slam works on minis with more than one wound, and if someone could explain this then great. Enterpreting the rules for this thing are more of a challenge than putting the actual model together which was hard enough in itself!

Author:	tlotrsbg [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
hithero wrote: Don't think you can hit the Beast when shooting and in combat as you measure from the beasts base as the crew are part of the beast model and not models in their own right like the Mumak & crew. im not sure what you are saying ? .. are you saying that the general rule is that you measure from the base therefore they are not in the same h2h combat fight as the beast? .. I think thats probably right as he would be far too op if not, imagine rolling like 12-13 dice to see who wins a fight lol .. guarenteed 6 pretty much not to mention the attacks after .. I think one is fairly definite.

Author:	tlotrsbg [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
ukfreddybear wrote: I tried mine for the first time this week. First up I agreed with my Radagast wielding opponent that the spell Panic Steed was uncastable for monsters on oval bases as that would be pointless. He did a nice job of immobilising him though. I had the archers hitting on a 6, as that is what the shoot value for the entire model is, rather than the regular orc value which is slightly less. Is that right or wrong? I think I was also doing Slam wrong. I thought it replaced cavalry charge bonuses but evidently not, which meant that everytime I failed to slam a man, he stood there and went toe to toe, rather than getting knocked to the ground etc. I am also unsure how slam works on minis with more than one wound, and if someone could explain this then great. Enterpreting the rules for this thing are more of a challenge than putting the actual model together which was hard enough in itself! hmm I didnt think about panic steed! ..that wouldbe awful if its ok on him, also does that work on a fell beast?, im pretty sure yu hit on 5+ with orcs shooting as it says to look up the profile on page 34 when using the orcs, yeh I dont think slam knocks people down, but he may be considered a monsterous mount which is also not clear .. he qualifies for the str 6 but we dunno if the guys on the back count as mounted or like just riding?, if so then the mumakil are monsterous mounts too and get knock to the ground and extra attacks, slam on a model with more than one wound would just mean he stays after being wounded imo and wouldnt knock him down ...(yet)

Author:	tlotrsbg [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
just noticed that in composition the great beast IS a monsterous mount and it is said in black and white! .. he gets extra attack and knocks things over on charging .. excellent ! .. also I noticed the mumak says that he is a mount for the haradrim chieftain riding him ! .. so it seems the mumak is too .. do people play him this way ? perhaps im just behind on that but anyway feel like im getting somewhere on this guy !

Author:	Elessar Telcontar [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
tlotrsbg wrote: just noticed that in composition the great beast IS a monsterous mount and it is said in black and white! .. he gets extra attack and knocks things over on charging .. excellent ! .. also I noticed the mumak says that he is a mount for the haradrim chieftain riding him ! .. so it seems the mumak is too .. do people play him this way ? perhaps im just behind on that but anyway feel like im getting somewhere on this guy ! No, the Mumak do not gain charging bonuses as a monstrous mount, I am sure about that. It is replaced by its own rules (free strikes upon base contact, knocks down even when it does not charge).

Author:	Ukfreddybear [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
So why does the Beast model have a shoot value if you ignore it and go with the orcs? I assumed shooting would be slightly more difficult due to keeping balance within the howdah as the beast rumbles along.

Author:	Dezartfox [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
The gorgoroth is a monstruous mount, so the rider can use the creatures stats as per usual, when your opponent strikes at it, he can choose to either attack the rider, or mount, if he attacks and kills the rider another orc automatically takes over (meaning you can kill multiple riders). There are a few problems with it though.... like being knocked over. Things like Call Winds from the elf casters.. How does that work? I assumed all the orcs fell out, took damage and then the beast needed courage checks or fled as per a usual mount.

Author:	tlotrsbg [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
ukfreddybear wrote: So why does the Beast model have a shoot value if you ignore it and go with the orcs? I assumed shooting would be slightly more difficult due to keeping balance within the howdah as the beast rumbles along. lots of different things in the game have a shoot value but no shooting like Shelob/cave drake/necromancer even the fell beast so I think its just for completion of stats rather than relevance to what they can do.

Author:	tlotrsbg [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
Dezartfox wrote: The gorgoroth is a monstruous mount, so the rider can use the creatures stats as per usual, when your opponent strikes at it, he can choose to either attack the rider, or mount, if he attacks and kills the rider another orc automatically takes over (meaning you can kill multiple riders). There are a few problems with it though.... like being knocked over. Things like Call Winds from the elf casters.. How does that work? I assumed all the orcs fell out, took damage and then the beast needed courage checks or fled as per a usual mount. so are you suggesting the the 1 orc controlling him joins any h2h combat he is in or all of the orcs do ?

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Author:	tlotrsbg [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
ukfreddybear wrote: So why does the Beast model have a shoot value if you ignore it and go with the orcs? I assumed shooting would be slightly more difficult due to keeping balance within the howdah as the beast rumbles along. by the way are you the gyu that made that awesome stone giant for DMS? .. great work if it is!

Author:	GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
ukfreddybear wrote: So why does the Beast model have a shoot value if you ignore it and go with the orcs? Every single model has a shoot value even things like Giant Spiders and Wild Wargs.

Author:	Dezartfox [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
tlotrsbg wrote: Dezartfox wrote: The gorgoroth is a monstruous mount, so the rider can use the creatures stats as per usual, when your opponent strikes at it, he can choose to either attack the rider, or mount, if he attacks and kills the rider another orc automatically takes over (meaning you can kill multiple riders). There are a few problems with it though.... like being knocked over. Things like Call Winds from the elf casters.. How does that work? I assumed all the orcs fell out, took damage and then the beast needed courage checks or fled as per a usual mount. so are you suggesting the the 1 orc controlling him joins any h2h combat he is in or all of the orcs do ? Just the one guy controlling it It's the orc fighting remember, he can just substitute his stats for those of the beast.

Author:	Ukfreddybear [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
tlotrsbg wrote: are you the guy that made that awesome stone giant for DMS? .. great work if it is! Yes I am. Cheers. GothmogtheWerewolf wrote: Every single model has a shoot value even things like Giant Spiders and Wild Wargs. Ah, that must be a new supplement thing. About one third of the models in the ORB do not have a shoot value.

Author:	tlotrsbg [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
Dezartfox wrote: tlotrsbg wrote: Dezartfox wrote: The gorgoroth is a monstruous mount, so the rider can use the creatures stats as per usual, when your opponent strikes at it, he can choose to either attack the rider, or mount, if he attacks and kills the rider another orc automatically takes over (meaning you can kill multiple riders). There are a few problems with it though.... like being knocked over. Things like Call Winds from the elf casters.. How does that work? I assumed all the orcs fell out, took damage and then the beast needed courage checks or fled as per a usual mount. so are you suggesting the the 1 orc controlling him joins any h2h combat he is in or all of the orcs do ? Just the one guy controlling it It's the orc fighting remember, he can just substitute his stats for those of the beast. yeh I guess that kinda makes sense

Author:	tlotrsbg [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Great Beast of Gorgoroth rules !!!! ?
ukfreddybear wrote: tlotrsbg wrote: are you the guy that made that awesome stone giant for DMS? .. great work if it is! Yes I am. Cheers. GothmogtheWerewolf wrote: Every single model has a shoot value even things like Giant Spiders and Wild Wargs. Ah, that must be a new supplement thing. About one third of the models in the ORB do not have a shoot value. did you sculpt that uruk hai in your pic mate ? isnt he a rare model? whats the story behind that model ! ?