Good one Dr Grant, I think we should use Troke's authority on this.
You should have asked about Might though, that one is trckier than Will.
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| Panic steed vs white warg? http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=25116 |
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| Author: | Grungehog [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Panic steed vs white warg? |
sorry to repost this topic but I had it under the wrong forum section would the white warg be affected by panic steed? being as it is a hero in it's own right |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
Yes, the white warg)would be affected., being a hero doesn't matter. As would fell beasts, chariots, gandalf's cart and radagast's bunny sled. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
I thought Panic Steed only targets mounted models. Are you referencing the White Warg used as a mount for Azog (?) or did they change the spell in the new rules? |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
Beowulf03809 wrote: I thought Panic Steed only targets mounted models. Are you referencing the White Warg used as a mount for Azog (?) or did they change the spell in the new rules? The White Warg is a Named Hero, but he can only be selected as a Mount for Azog. Azog is therefore the target. |
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| Author: | cereal_theif [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
Disagree! If Azog is mounted on the White Warg .... You target a model not a character. The model targetted may attempt to resist. Hence the White Warg may use his will. |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
Azog is still the target of the spell even if you use the Warg's Will, becaue the profile isn't "The White Warg w/ Azog riding him" it is "Azog riding on the White Warg" |
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| Author: | cereal_theif [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
Oooo just reread hte rules and now I agree with you but not on the grounds you say. "This power may only target mounted models" So it is saying you target the Azog part of the problem. Hence only he can resist.... even though it is called PANIC STEED and not CLUMBSY RIDER |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
Clumsy Rider lol Actually, your point is a point i made in this matter a long time ago, but was dismissed, so I tried a different way. |
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| Author: | Grungehog [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
so if I understand you target the mount as such the white warg creates a strange scenario as he is a hero with m/w/f in his own right so... panic steed normally cannot be resisted as the mount IS the target but this would be an exception as the white warg IS the only hero steed in the game |
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
^NO. Both models count as one model. A Nazgul can resist Panic Steed for his Fell Beast. Since they both count as one model (in this case), you can use Azog's Will as well as the WW's Will. The question about whether you can use both in the same turn, however, is rather different. I'm expecting a FAQ where the WW can't be targeted by PS as he does auto pass courage. I know PS isn't a courage thing, it would really just be a fluff thing. |
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| Author: | cereal_theif [ Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
Im sorry Draghlin but if you read the rules I believe you are wrong. The panic steed rule actually states you are targetting the rider not the mount. Panic steed can only be resisted by the rider if we use RAW. Though I feel RAI is as you said, both can resist. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
I wonder how much of that wording though may have come from the fact that I don't think we've had a mount with M/W/F before. For all regular mounts GW has allowed the player to select appropriate profile value (Fight/Strength) to use at the time from either the mount or the rider. There has already been some discussion on if the WW can use his own Might for an Heroic Combat, for example. I think this is a case where GW should think for a minute to be sure they get it right and release a basic FQ statement to cover this and any future cases where a mount actually has MWF of its own. |
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
cereal_theif wrote: Im sorry Draghlin but if you read the rules I believe you are wrong. The panic steed rule actually states you are targetting the rider not the mount. Panic steed can only be resisted by the rider if we use RAW. Though I feel RAI is as you said, both can resist. The rules as written say that they count as ONE model, so you can use the Will from either. |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
Draugluin wrote: cereal_theif wrote: Im sorry Draghlin but if you read the rules I believe you are wrong. The panic steed rule actually states you are targetting the rider not the mount. Panic steed can only be resisted by the rider if we use RAW. Though I feel RAI is as you said, both can resist. The rules as written say that they count as ONE model, so you can use the Will from either. But they don't actually say that part, you need an FAQ. Although it has no bearing on the White Warg, how did Gwaihir's Will work when he used to be a Monstrous Mount for Gandalf? |
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| Author: | cereal_theif [ Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
They do say it is the rider that is targetted. Only the target may resist so ipto facto that is how it works. As for gwaihir I've no idea... anyone got hte old old book |
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| Author: | Draugluin [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
That's only because every other mount is just a mount. They also say that all cavalry models are treated as one model. |
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| Author: | cereal_theif [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
But that doesn't matter if the spell in question says it targets the rider. Read As Written (aka RAW) is still falling on the side of "sorry white warg your will is kinda pointless unless he gets off your back" Despite my view that the WW should be able to use his will |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
I'm sure this is just a case of GW not thinking out a rather significant change (using a "hero" as a mount) that just didn't seem like a big deal initially. They probably wrote the rule for PS like this "back in the day" to AVOID confusion that may come up when someone says "panic steed effects the steed, not the rider, and the steed doesn't have Will" (yeah, I know the whole "rider/mount = same" rule but people still get confused). I do expect an FAQ entry with the next update and would not be surprised if it's as simple as saying that if a mount has M/W/F then the player may elect to use the M/W/F of the mount or rider, although that leaves some room for abuse and strange things as well so hopefully they will think it out and make a good, clean statement. |
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| Author: | Dr Grant [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
I had a chat with Adam Troke about this at the Throne of Skulls (think you were there as memory serves Cereal?) and, when asked whether the White Warg could use his will to resist spells targeted at Azog his response was (IIRC): "Oh of course he can" It didn't come down to a close reading of the rules, his feeling was very much one of the spirit of the rules 'this toy soldier zaps this toy solider, this toy solider can prevent that with his will' etc. I found it interesting and somewhat reassuring that the game's author was very much in favour of common sense rulings and playing in the spirit of the game. However, I have no doubt that this answer wouldn't satisfy certain players with a certian mentality on the tournament circuit. I think sometimes people worry so much about the exact words that they lose sight of the point of the words, can't see the wood for the trees and so forth, just the nature of the beast I suppose. Ah well, just thought Troke's musings might be of interest/use to this thread. |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Panic steed vs white warg? |
Good one Dr Grant, I think we should use Troke's authority on this. You should have asked about Might though, that one is trckier than Will. |
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