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Supporting with ranged weapons?
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=25447		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Supporting with ranged weapons?
This is going to sound like a pretty strange question, but it is something that came up the other day when we were playing during our campaign. Being vastly outnumbered by goblins, I took to huddling in a corner and pelting goblins with Ori, until eventually one of the goblins succeeded their courage check to charge Gandalf in front.

At this point, it looked something like this:

Ori|Gandalf|Goblin

Ori was in base combat with Gandalf, Gandalf was in base combat with the goblin. Next shooting phase I wanted to pelt that goblin, and we couldn't agree on what the rules say.


Rule 1: A model in base contact does not count as being in the way for ranged attacks.

Rule 2: If a model is involved in combat, you have to roll in the way for them to avoid hitting them.


However, going through the rulebook several times, we weren't able to determine which one of these two rules has priority.

Do you have to roll in the way for a model in base contact involved in melee combat?

We agreed on not rolling in the way for the simple fact that if you can support somebody with a spear without hitting them, it should be possible to do the same with a ranged weapon, but that was based more on common sense than on rules.


Ideas?
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
if the goblin was in combat (base to base) with gandalf, then you cant shoot him as good models may not shoot into combat.
Author:  Damian [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
The Goblin had moved into base to base contact with Gandalf. It was engaged in a fight with Gandalf and cannot be shot by Ori because Good models are not allowed to shoot into a fight.

Edit: Bah, Ninja'd by Southy.
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
SouthernDunedain wrote:
if the goblin was in combat (base to base) with gandalf, then you cant shoot him as good models may not shoot into combat.


That's the thing though, good models are not allowed to endanger their own teammates. Would Ori actually be endangering Gandalf if he was in base contact though?

As far as the first rule (and if you ask me, logic) is concerned, if you can safely support somebody from base combat with a spear, I don't see why you couldn't safely support them with a ranged weapon.

The rules are extremely vague about whether or not a model in combat is in the way for somebody in base combat with them.



We have already agreed to take the rules of good can't do x to mean "good forces can't endanger their own forces".

So Ori would be able to shoot just fine with defence 9 allies in the way, because there is no way he could actually injure them. (Str 1 shot can't hit D9 target, as such there is no risk involved for the ally.)
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
the rules are very clear in the fact good models cannot shoot into combat under any circumstances. Even siege engines cant do it.
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
SouthernDunedain wrote:
the rules are very clear in the fact good models cannot shoot into combat under any circumstances. Even siege engines cant do it.


Alright, assume for a moment then that it is not ori and gandalf, but Grinnah standing behind a normal goblin, aiming for some dwarf in base combat.

Does Grinnah risk hitting the normal goblin if he is standing in base combat?
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
yup because you are shooting into combat. not sure where the confusion is here, rules are very clear. you can shoot past the combat without taking in the ways if you have clear LoS to your target.
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
SouthernDunedain wrote:
yup because you are shooting into combat. not sure where the confusion is here, rules are very clear. you can shoot past the combat without taking in the ways if you have clear LoS to your target.


The confusion stems from the fact that the first rule clearly states that you do not make in-the-way checks for models in base combat, and the rule about shooting into combat doesn't state anything about that rule.

It just says you need to make a 1-3, 4-6 in the way roll to see if you hit your own friend, but nowhere does it mention how this interacts with the rule that states you do not make in-the-way rolls for allies in base contact.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
Right. stop interpreting the rules in a way that suits you. The rule you are referring to applies to friendly models in b2b not a friendly model in b2b with a friend in a fight. The reason it doesnt say anything is because of the 'if you are a good player, you cannot shoot into combat rule'. Doesnt matter what def you are etc, you cannot do it.

Good models cannot shoot into combat. Keep reading that and you'll be fine.
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
That still doesn't answer my question though, if an evil unit did it, would they risk hitting their own 'friend'? They are allowed per the rules to do it, and nowhere in the 'shooting at models in a fight' does it mention if that counters out the base2base rule.

So would Grinnah risk hitting his own goblin minion while throwing his weapon at a dwarf if he's in base combat with the goblin minion that is in combat with the dwarf?


It's not a question of "do the rules allow this", it's a question of "what rule has priority here?" Do you not take a roll because you are in base contact, or do you take a roll despite being in base combat because the target is in combat?
Author:  Damian [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
There is no conflict of rules. Grinnah is shooting into a fight regardless of whether he's in B2B with the Goblin or not.
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
Damian wrote:
There is no conflict of rules. Grinnah is shooting into a fight regardless of whether he's in B2B with the Goblin or not.


Yes, he's shooting into a fight, I'm fully aware of that.
But then he's tasked with making an in-the-way check to see if he hits the goblin, even though the previous rule states he does not have to make in-the-way checks for that goblin because he's in base contact.
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
Theik wrote:
The confusion stems from the fact that the first rule clearly states that you do not make in-the-way checks for models in base combat, and the rule about shooting into combat doesn't state anything about that rule.


It doesn't have to. You're assuming you can pick which of two conditions apply. But they both apply. So it's down to simple logic: if X is true and Y is false, the whole statement is false. You can shoot from behind a friend, but can't risk shooting into combat, therefore, you can't shoot from behind a friend in combat.

Same for the evil shooter, you can shoot from behind a friend, and you risk shooting your friend in combat.

One appealing thing about the SBG rules is they tend to be minimal and terse, and usually only need a little logic to figure out odd conditions as opposed to listing every possible rule cross-interaction.
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
whafrog wrote:
One appealing thing about the SBG rules is they tend to be minimal and terse, and usually only need a little logic to figure out odd conditions as opposed to listing every possible rule cross-interaction.


But wouldn't a little logic suggest that if the first rule says you do not make in-the-way checks for models in base contact, and the second rule says you make in-the-way checks for models in combat, you do not make in-the-way rules for models in base contact?


So:

Grinnah:Goblin:Target:Goblin

Green goblin is safe because he is in base contact, red goblin is at risk of getting hit because he is not in base contact.
Author:  SidTheSloth [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
This popped up in one of our games too and I see your point Thiek.
We ended up just throwing a 50/50 die to see what would become of it. :roll:

Rules aside, surely 'logicly' a warrior would be able to shoot something near point blank at an attacking enemy? :roll:
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
No, the main point is that you are assuming you can pick which of two conditions applies. But this is wrong, because they both apply. There is no rule clarifying, so you can't arbitrarily pick one of the two conditions as having precedence.
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
whafrog wrote:
No, the main point is that you are assuming you can pick which of two conditions applies. But this is wrong, because they both apply. There is no rule clarifying, so you can't arbitrarily pick one of the two conditions as having precedence.


Let me try to put it in an entirely different context:

If you are carrying an umbrella, you can't get wet.
If you are walking in the rain, you get wet.


Now obviously, you will not get wet while walking in the rain if you have an umbrella.


It has nothing to do with picking which condition applies, it is simply a combination of the two.
If you are shooting and you are in base combat with a model, you do not need to make in-the-way rolls for that model.
If you are shooting into a combat, you have to make in the make in-the-way rolls for the models involved.

The rule very clearly states that you are making in the way rolls for those models in the combat, where as the first rule clearly states you do not need to make in the way rolls for stuff in base contact.

Putting one and two together, it states:
You have to make in-the-way rolls when shooting into combat, except for models in base combat with the shooter.
Author:  Damian [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
Sure about that? Looks to me like you don't take 'In the Way' rolls for models in B2B unless they're involved in a fight.
Author:  Pox [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
from a thematic point of view it is quite simple.

when the enemy is far away your mate is simply standing in front of you and it is easy to shoot past him when standing directly behind him (heck he might even crouch down for you, who knows.)

once he gets in a fight, he is moving all around, thrusting, parrying etc it will become a lot harder to then shoot at the target enemy model since your mate is now in a state of movement and you land a much greater risk of shooting them.

And yes on a rules front agree with most of the people here, good players even in BtB cannot shoot into combat and evil players do risk hitting their own men. The rules do seem quite clear on this one.

Even if you was not to take in the way checks for the good model (and thus had 0 chance of hitting your own guy) it would still not overide the rule that states you cannot shoot into combat.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting with ranged weapons?
Read the new wording in the Hobbit rulebook guys.

The rules for shooting from behind friends clearly state that models in base contact do not count as an obstruction for the purposes of shooting, it no longer says "models in base contact do not require an in the way roll to shoot through", it says that "while other models are typically considered to be obstructions when it comes to making shots, we make an exception for models who are in base contact with a friendly model"

To me, even though that rule has arguably the vaguest wording, it still sounds like it trumps the 'shooting into combat' rule.
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