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Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=25464		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  LordElrond [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
Hi guys,
As above, does Mardin's long speary poley thing count as a spear?

Thanks,
LordElrond
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
no. counts as a hand weapon.
Author:  Galanur [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
Text about it says its a spear gifted to Mardin by his king upon his appointment as life ward and adds +1 to wound vs trolls
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
Look at his equipment. It says torozul, nowhere does it say that it is a spear. And the fluff doesnt count in this instance.
Author:  LordElrond [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
But it says he's a veteran vault warden?
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
Do you have the sourcebook? Read his equipment and tell me what it says.
Author:  LordElrond [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
Yes but it says that in his description
Here is what the sourcebook says: "Torozul. When rolling to wound against trolls, the bearer of this weapon adds +1 to his dice roll on the wound chart."

But is also says: "Mardin, a veteran vault warden"
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
so it doesnt say spear?
Author:  Galanur [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
vault warden are made of 2 models, the shield bearer and the spear foe, mardin is a spear carrier, so spear its his only weapon
Author:  LordElrond [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
I guess I'll ask at GW tomorrow, although they're not really very helpful most of the time.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
right. vault wardens have spears as it says so in their profile. Mardin does not, as he profile says nothing about him having a spear. You cannot mix and match profiles. House rule it if you wish, but he officially does not have a spear.
Author:  KnightyKnight [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
Guys, it really is very simple.

Is a spear listed in either the wargear or the upgrades/equipment section for Mardin?

If yes, then he has a spear.

If not then alright, the model is equipped with one, but he can't use it as such in the game.

An oversight by GW perhaps, but the rules stand regardless. Until it is FAQ'ed Mardin only counts as having a hand weapon.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
What Southerndunedain is saying, just not in perhaps the best of manners, is that unless it specifies it's a spear or that he has one (unfortunately, neither of which is the case), he can't use it as a spear.

There is reason to see it would be intended to be able to be used as a spear, but RAW, it's not. Unfortunately, due to WYSIWYG, it also means that he doesn't get any of the special strike choices either...
Author:  cereal_theif [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
Ok well I think if someone wanted to use him as a spear vs me I probably would let them unless I was in a tournament.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
cereal_thief: I imagine most people in a friendly gaming environment would ^^ To be honest, anyone being THAT much of a stickler for what is clearly an oversight is somewhat I'd be dubious about playing.
Author:  SidTheSloth [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
I reckon it should count as a spear... after all, it's just a spear called Torozul. Anduril doesn't say it's a sword... how do we know that isn't a 2H weapon?
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
To be fair, Anduril is actually a bastard-sword - it can be used as either (as seen in the films as well), so there is a reasonable thought that it could be used as such. I'm going to stick to the topic of Torozul for now though, lol ;)

Aeglos, Gil-galad's spear, actually speecifically states that it doesn't use the rules for being a spear. Torozul doesn't have such an exclusive ruling and WYSIWYG tells us that Torozul IS a spear. Ergo, it is intended to be able to be used as a spear, despite the inclusive ruling of "Torozul - Spear. Also has benefits X, Y and Z..." being non-present.

Wish I could word that in people-English :D
Author:  theavenger001 [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
SidTheSloth wrote:
Anduril doesn't say it's a sword... how do we know that isn't a 2H weapon?

Good point. No more feinting with anduril. :P
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
Actually, you can feint with it because the weapn striking rules must go by WYSIWYG. Otherwise, no normal warriors can use any of the special strike rules and all SBG, not-Hobbit characters too. Surely?
Author:  Fishlegs [ Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does Torozul Count as a Spear?
The original rules for Mardin (in the Khazad Dum source book) specified that Torozul is a spear. Whilst the new rules don't specify this as such there was clearly an intention that it would be used as a spear. I know that old rules do not count, but there was clearly an intention and whoever wrote the Free Peoples book has made a mistake and it has been missed in all the FAQs so far. We know the source books are riddled with mistakes and omissions.

In addition as mentioned the model is only bearing a spear, which must by logic be Torozul by the rules of WYSIWYG.

Also also as previously mentioned Anduril is not specified as a sword, neither is Gandalf's Glamdring.

If someone was to argue that Torozul was not a spear I would point them to the rules for Gandalf and Aragorn first (and probably countless other named weapons where we expected to use some common sense).

If you plan to use Mardin in a tournament you may wish to ask the organisers first (but make sure you also ask about Glamdring and Anduril in the same sentence!). If you are playing a friendly game and your opponent refuses, just make that your last game with that player.
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