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Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
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Author:  Grungehog [ Mon May 06, 2013 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Is it me or the new axe/pick rules have made these lil' blighters an absolute nightmare
if your enemy is trapped and you use your 2haxe you can potentially have a S6 with +2 to wound.
Does this mean they auto-wound anything Defence 4
Author:  theavenger001 [ Mon May 06, 2013 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Grungehog wrote:
Is it me or the new axe/pick rules have made these lil' blighters an absolute nightmare
if your enemy is trapped and you use your 2haxe you can potentially have a S6 with +2 to wound.

Of course they have to win the fight (with f3 only) while going two handed, and they have to have their opponent trapped, but still.....

Quote:
Does this mean they auto-wound anything Defence 4

Yep. :twisted:
Author:  Bilbo [ Mon May 06, 2013 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Staggering, I hadn't noticed that, however, isn't a 1 always a fail?
I am sure that was stated in the old rules, has anyone noticed a similar statement in the Hobbit hard back?
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Mon May 06, 2013 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Bilbo wrote:
Staggering, I hadn't noticed that, however, isn't a 1 always a fail?
I am sure that was stated in the old rules, has anyone noticed a similar statement in the Hobbit hard back?


No, if that was the case a fight where both models roll a 1 on their duel rolls would be an instant failure.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Mon May 06, 2013 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Everything I've learnt about Wargaming over the last 20 years tells me that a roll of 1 to wound is always a fail but as far as I can see there's nothing in the Hobbit rules manual that says that. Equally there's nothing that states that if modifiers allow you to roll a 1+ then you don't need to roll.

It's not clear but personally I would always say a 1 will fail when rolling to wound.
Author:  Damian [ Mon May 06, 2013 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Quote:
as far as I can see there's nothing in the Hobbit rules manual that says that.

This.

I had a look in the manual too and couldn't find anything that says 'a 1 to wound always fails'. This type of rule is very clear in GWs other games, so its omission in SBG has to be intentional. That said it it a rare occurance when you can wound on a roll of 1 as the minimum required by the wound chart is 3+, so you need to engineer a situation where you need a 3+ to wound and have a +2 bonus.
Author:  Bilbo [ Mon May 06, 2013 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
No, if that was the case a fight where both models roll a 1 on their duel rolls would be an instant failure.[/quote]

The quandry is about to wound rolls, not who wins the fight!

I suspect that its an over sight,as there is no point rolling a dice to determine a probability of 100%. It might be worth contacting the rules guys at GW, we might find that we get an answer FAQed etc.
Author:  Damian [ Tue May 07, 2013 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Remember we are talking about goblin prowlers with 2-handed axes winning a fight against a trapped enemy and then rolling high enough with 'Piercing Strike' to beat their enemy's Defence value by two. So the maximum D they could auto wound is 4. Most things that are D4 are just not worth the effort of trapping with prowlers and would probably be killed by double strikes wounding on 2+ anyway, so it's really not worth worrying about. The only models that should worry about this are unarmoured Elf heroes and Spider Queens, all of which should not be losing fights with prowlers.....or getting trapped.

I can't think of any other circumstance where a model could get +2 to wound though. Is there another model that has both a +1 from a 2-hander or a Lance and a further +1 that stacks with it, like the 'backstabbers' rule.

If not then in every other conceivable circumtance in SBG a roll of 1 to wound is a failure.
Author:  Bilbo [ Tue May 07, 2013 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
That's a good point, its only the softies that are liable to automatic wounds. Bu its still an excellent way of isolating an taking on heavily armoured dwarves. I suspect that I will be using a house rule in the future of 1 is always a negative result.
Author:  JamesR [ Tue May 07, 2013 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
I actually like the aspect that 1's are not an auto-failure. Ive played a few different games (most that don't exist anymore like MechWarrior Dark-age/Age of Destruction) where there was a "critical miss" or "weapons failure" but this is Medieval Warfare, a sword (aside from breaking) cannot perform a "weapon failure". Plus the fact that characters like Boromir taking a 1 and through might turning it into a killing blow is quite frankly epic!
Author:  Bilbo [ Tue May 07, 2013 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Interesting idea, but I feel that there should always be the element of risk and for the victim a chance of survival. Representing a butter fingers fumble or perhaps a luck cigarette case etc!
Author:  Damian [ Tue May 07, 2013 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Quote:
Plus the fact that characters like Boromir taking a 1 and through might turning it into a killing blow is quite frankly epic!

This is a pretty good reason for there being no 'natural roll of 1 always fails' rule. Heroes need to be able to do heroic stuff, they need to be able to burn all their might to take the last wound off a monster. It's heroic.

Incidentally, that also answers my previous question, a hero using might can have +2 or even more to wound. Each point of might goes a little further if your hero is wielding a 2-handed weapon too.
Author:  whafrog [ Tue May 07, 2013 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Grungehog wrote:
Is it me or the new axe/pick rules have made these lil' blighters an absolute nightmare
if your enemy is trapped and you use your 2haxe you can potentially have a S6 with +2 to wound.
Does this mean they auto-wound anything Defence 4


Looks like it. Seems ridiculous to me, even though it's highly circumstantial. It makes all those cool weapons of previous game versions, like Anduril, Aeglos, and Durin's Axe, seem pretty lame by comparison.
Author:  Damian [ Tue May 07, 2013 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
So what you're saying is weapons that give bonuses in all situations with no penalties are lame compared to the highly situational (and very slim) chance that a prowler swinging a 2-handed axe could auto-wound a trapped D4 enemy model? Yeah, it's a game-breaker :P :-D
Author:  Bilbo [ Tue May 07, 2013 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Its certainly weighted in favour of the lesser cheaper individuals (primarily evil) particularly with feint, and the bonuses are comparable or even superior (piercing strike) than fabled magical weapons named in the books! So I would have to agree with whafrog, regardless of situational rarety, that a meagre goblin should be able to fight with a stronger killing bonus than Gil Galad high king of the Elves armed with Aegolas. I have always felt that the magical weapons with the exception of Narsil and Anduril are a bit wimpy.
Author:  Damian [ Tue May 07, 2013 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
But those magic weapons have no downsides, no penalties and therefore no risk. They may not be devastatingly powerful, but they are very reliable and over a number of fight phases will really rack up the kills without burning your Might stores. Gil-Galad is always very killy, all the time. Durin's Axe can do Piercing Strike too...... if you're feeling lucky, of course.

A prowler is at -1 to win the fight if he chooses to go 2-handed and -D3 D if he loses and he also needs to be fighting a trapped enemy to get 'backstabbers'. In order to realistically win against a suitable D4 target like Legolas he has to trap him with a couple of mates and get really lucky (Leggy has higher F and has might) or he needs a hero (for Heroic Strike), bat swarm or F6+ monster in the fight to help him out. If you've managed to trap Leggy with a cave troll and 2 prowlers then well played, but there's still no guarantee of winning that fight anyway.

Special Strikes have not been implemented well. I would like to see them re-balanced, limited to heroes/specific elite units or gone entirely in the next edition. I think most of us will agree with that.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue May 07, 2013 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
I agree with Damian, but those who pointed out that special strikes make evil even more overpowered are absolutely correct unfortunately :(
Author:  Bilbo [ Tue May 07, 2013 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
I suspect that making special strikes Hero only could be more practical, as my gaming group and I have ignored it as it tends to be enormously time consuming.
Author:  whafrog [ Wed May 08, 2013 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Goblin prowlers with 2haxe
Damian wrote:
A prowler is at -1 to win the fight if he chooses to go 2-handed


This probably won't matter much, they're likely to be outfought anyway. The - to D does shift the odds...yes, I agree there are drawbacks, but like Bilbo said, having that kind of killing power in the hands of squeaking little imps just doesn't seem right.

I think it scales better on the high end...if you let Durin get surrounded, then lookout! That what it seems to be for. But it doesn't scale at the low end. Since the Wound chart currently bottoms out at 3 (even for a Balrog against a Hobbit!), I think they should FAQ this so you can't go below a 3.
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