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hand weapons with mounts questions.
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=26537		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  rkruse [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  hand weapons with mounts questions.
So I have a question about the witch king build I am thinking about running at BBB. I bought him the crown of Morgul, +3 might/+5 will/+3 fate and a fellbeast

When he charges on the fellbeast he gets 4 attacks and each can be at the fellbeast str to wound with the crown correct? I can use the attacks of the witch king and the str of his mount.

If I dropped the crown in favor of more will and picked up the flail instead, if I am using the flail, I'm -1 on rolls due to the 2 hander rule. Do I still get to use the fellbeast's str to wound and then add the +1 or does it have to be at the witch king's str becuase of the specific weapon being used?

Another thing that might come up. Lets say the enemy gets a solid surround on me and I cant charge because I am based. they have 6 models on me. I call a heroic strike, lets just say I go to 10fight. I opt to use the flail so that I can get the special swing attack on it. I roll a 6. I minus 1 it due to a two hander. Can I then use might to bump it back to a 6?
Then lets say I win the fight, I can strike a single wound on each unit basing me. Do I get to use the fellbeast str on that as I am still mounted? If so, do I get the +1. I would think if I am using a specific weapon strike wouldn't I have to use the model's str that is wielding it?

Now lets say that Walter White was there.... :o
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
Yes, you can always use the mount's stats in place of the rider's stats if you want.

Yes, you can use Might to bump that 6 - 1 back up to a 6, but note that you don't have to use the Flail in every fight just because you paid for it. Every model has a hand weapon unless otherwise specified, so the Flail is just another option. If you're surrounded, you might not want to use the flail if you're worried about losing the fight (say, you ran out of Might). You can't do special strikes with a hand weapon though...
Author:  rkruse [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
So I can use the Nazgul's stregth to inflict wounds even if I attack with the flail? I.E. higher strength to wound and still get the +1 for two hander on wound rolls? What I was hoping for was being able to do the all around attack of the flail against like 6 targets and rolling those all at Str6 with the +1 to wound roll combined. I'd burn a might or two on that for the chance to kill 4+ models if my nazgul gets trapped.

Good to know about pumping might on a 2 handed roll. I always though the best you could ever do was a 5 when using two handed weapon.

I'm just trying to figure is it better to keep the crown, or drop it for a flail and give him 5 more will and just have him fight more basic units with that and more spell power instead of trying to make him a hero slayer.

Ive been play testing him and I always get him in to kill a hero, but then I get trapped and run out of might to survive the counter attacks that follow the next round.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
Just remember if you choose to use the flail strike, you become fv1.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
No, hang on, surely if you choose to use the Fell Beast's strength you don't still get the Flail bonus to wound?

You choose the best stat at each point. You might choose to use the Witch King's fight at which point he could declare he's using the flail. However, as soon as you then choose the monster's strength to attack with it's the Fell Beast fighting so he won't get the +1 to wound.

It's yet another annoying grey area caused by the Ringwraiths getting the Monstrous Cavalry boost (as if they need it) so it won't actually be covered by any section of the rules. However, the intention is clear, if a model is using a flail it gets the attack bonus, as soon as you choose to use the Fell Beast's strength you are no longer using that model so you are no longer using the flail. After all, Warg Riders don't feint with the warg's strength do they?

That's how I see it, the intention of the rules writers is 100% clear IMO and I think any TO or FAQ would rule in this way. It's an interesting one though, I'm about to fire of a long list of FAQ's so I'll add it in.
Author:  rkruse [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
I thought I remember reading something about cav models not being able to use special strikes while mounted.. or maybe that was just the shielding option. If thats the case thats answers my Flial question...

I do agree that a warg rider should not get to feint and use the warg's strength on rolls. I just shot the tourney Judge the question and I will see what he comes back with.

I'll double check his Morgul Blade rule tonight and see how that works mounted. That might be simular to this and provide some clarity. :?
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
Dr Grant wrote:
No, hang on, surely if you choose to use the Fell Beast's strength you don't still get the Flail bonus to wound?


Why not? I agree it might be overkill, but I'm not finding anything in the rules saying you can't. I think previously 2H weapons couldn't be used mounted, maybe they came up with the flail rules before they removed the 2H-mounted rules.

Something for a FAQ anyway.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
whafrog wrote:
Why not?


Because it just screams 'wrong' to me, if you're using the strength/attacks etc. of the Fell Beast then it represents the beast fighting and so the weapon of the rider shouldn't come into it.

However, that's all just my gut feeling about what feels right, having looked over the special strikes and cavalry sections you're absolutely right, there's nothing saying you can't which, sadly, means you can.

The Morgul Blade is another good example, by this logic the Morgul blade can be used to get three attacks (on the charge), knock the enemy down and then get 6 chances to wound. Also, let's not forget it's a sword so the Witch King could Feint reducing his Fight value but then just choose to use the Fight 5 of the Fell Beast as that would then be higher. By extension all Ringwraiths on Fell Beasts should just feint all the time, use the fight value of the Fell Beast to win the Fight, knock everyone down and then get 6 S6 attacks re-rolllings 1s to wound. That all just seems crazy to me.

It grates more because it's yet another boost that only benefits Wraiths on Fell Beasts to any great degree (the odd Warg rider re-rolling 1s isn't going to change a game) when they're already beyond broken.

This could well be another symptom of the fact that all the cavalry rules were mistakingly removed from the Hobbit rulebook and had to be reinstated at the last minute causing all sorts of issues and omissions (riders not being thrown when horses were knocked down for example).

It simply needs an FAQ to say:

"If a mounted model is making a special strike he may not borrow any of his mounts stats in that Fight"

This is, of course, just my opinion as ever, albeit one I feel quite strongly about :-X
Author:  Dr Grant [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
Ah hang on, I've just had a look at the Mordor FAQ and it states that if The Witch King is on a horse (where The Witch King himself gains one extra attack) then all his attacks count as Morgul Blade attacks but if he's on a Fell Beast then he has to use his own Strength and Attacks value if he wants to benefit from the Morgul Blade.

Whilst it doesn't mention special strikes specifically, that to me says that if you want to benefit from a hand weapon you're holding then you have to use the Wraith's Strength and Attacks (and presumably Fight value).
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
Nice find, I agree.
Author:  rkruse [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
Taken from the free FAQ of the Mordor update on GW's site

Q: Can the Witch King's Morgul Blade be used in
conjunction with his Fell Beastʼs Attacks and Strength
characteristics? If so, when he wins a fight and knocks his
opponent over, will all 6 Attacks benefit from the Morgul
bladeʼs special rules? (p18)
A: No. If you wish to use the Morgul Blade, you must use
the Witch-kingʼs Strength and Attacks values, though he
may still double his Attacks if his opponent has been
knocked to the ground.


So in this case, If I had the morgul crown, I would still get 8 chances to wounds with the blade on a charge with the fellbeast, but at the King's Str.

So it would stand to reason that when you use a specific weapon or strike you would use the Model who has that ability when dealing with Cav. 8)
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hand weapons with mounts questions.
rkruse wrote:
So it would stand to reason that when you use a specific weapon or strike you would use the Model who has that ability when dealing with Cav. 8)


That does seem to be implied, but without a specific ruling it would be difficult to uphold in a tournament. Although...by specific weapon do you include 2H weapons?
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