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Archer, spearman, shieldwall
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28717		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Fri May 09, 2014 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Archer, spearman, shieldwall
I read on an individual's website regarding lotr sbg tactics. He indicated it was a good idea to line up your infintry with archers in back, then base a spearman in front of the archer with a swordman in front of the spearman. This he said will allow your swordman to fight with spear support and allow your archer to fire safely behind two people. I know about shooting over a single friends shoulder, but can you fire safely (avoiding in the way rolls) if your archer is stacked 2 ranks deep?
Author:  rigg1313 [ Fri May 09, 2014 2:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
You can't fire two deep. So somethings wrong there.
Perhaps what was meant, was that you should place archers in the second row and equip them with spears so they can shoot but then also support when the battle lines join.
Author:  samoht [ Fri May 09, 2014 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
Yeah, giving archers spears is a big yes. Harad is a good force for this tactic.
Author:  Valadorn [ Fri May 09, 2014 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
Wood elfs can be first lie and second line two while equipped with their spears and elven bows ^^
Author:  Pindergorn [ Fri May 09, 2014 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
It will work, if the front rank Lie Down, allowing the archers to shoot Over The Shoulder of the spearmen and over the prone front rank. It'll require careful timing though, as you'll need to stand the front rank back up before the enemy charges them.
Author:  Fëanor, the mighty elf [ Fri May 09, 2014 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
rigg1313 wrote:
You can't fire two deep. So somethings wrong there.

There is no such rule. The official rule is that the model has to have unblocked line of sight. Models in base contact do not count for this purpose.
So, if you want to make archers shoot from behind two ranks, you have to make sure they touch the row in front of them and can see the enemy between the front guys.

Something like this should work:

_0 0 <--- enemy

O O O <--- shields
O O O <--- spears
_0 0 <--- archers

Sure it's hard to position them properly to make this possible, but in principle you may do this. :) Just check line of sight for the archer, as always.
Author:  Pindergorn [ Fri May 09, 2014 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
The problem with that is that their cone of vision is extremely narrow, and so they may not have an unimpeded LOS to a target. If you move them to get LOS, then they'll get the -1 penalty to shoot.
Author:  rigg1313 [ Fri May 09, 2014 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
Essentially what I meant is setting up so that your archers are two deep would be tactically stupid.
Make them second row if u want them in the combat line and give them spears, super simple stuff.
Author:  mertaal [ Fri May 09, 2014 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
Fëanor, the mighty elf wrote:
rigg1313 wrote:
You can't fire two deep. So somethings wrong there.

There is no such rule. The official rule is that the model has to have unblocked line of sight. Models in base contact do not count for this purpose.


If you have three ranks of troops with archers at the back, then the archers are NOT in B2B with the front rank, only the middle rank. B2B does not "chain" as you are suggesting.

Therefore rigg1313 is correct- you cannot fire two deep. Evil players will have to make In the Way tests for the front rank, and good models will not be allowed to shoot at all.
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Fri May 09, 2014 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
rigg1313 wrote:
You can't fire two deep. So somethings wrong there.
Perhaps what was meant, was that you should place archers in the second row and equip them with spears so they can shoot but then also support when the battle lines join.

That is clever. Now I have to go thru my harad army and make sure everyone has spear and bows on themself.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Fri May 09, 2014 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
You can do it but it requires a really pedantic and cheesy reading of the rules.

You can indeed only shoot over one friend in base to base contact but the way people work it (that Feanor tried to explain) is that the archer (third rank) shoots over the shoulder of the spearman (2nd rank) but because of the way you have positioned your models the archer's line of sight is not obscured by the front rank. Faenor's diagram explains it pretty well. The archers do indeed have a very narrow arc of fire (straight forward) but that's normally not a problem when the whole enemy army is advancing towards you.

I will say that it's an incredibly cheesy tactic that tends to breed grumpiness during games as whether or not they can see can be quite subjective and is entirely based on exactly where you position your head behind the model.

It's certainly not something my gaming group do and thankfully is not a common tactic at tournaments. I've only ever come up against someone trying to do it once and I must admit I really didn't like it. To my mind it's people taking advantage of the true line-of-sight rule.

Also, anyone who lies their models down for some sort of tactical advantage gets a giant eye-roll from me :roll:
Author:  mertaal [ Fri May 09, 2014 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
Apologies feanor- I misread your post.

But yeah, wow. Really!?
Author:  Dr Grant [ Fri May 09, 2014 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
Yup, sadly some people will try it and it's a frustrating tactic. I just snapped some pics to give you an idea of the margins:

So here's the set-up, notice how I've turned my dwarves sideways so the elf on the left has got a better line of sight
Image

Now getting down to the elf's viewpoint I can clearly see Azog. I'm only shooting over the shoulder of one friend but the dwarf in the front rank does not obscure his view
Image

Now have a look what happens if I simply turn the dwarves to face the front (as they should be aesthetically), the elf no longer has a clear line to Azog, the front dwarf blocks him so a Good model could not make the shot and an Evil player would have an ITW roll for the front rank model
Image

I violently dislike any tactic that encourages to to face your models the wrong way to get an in-game advantage. The worst thing of course is that this isn't limited to 2 ranks, I've heard of someone shooting through 4 ranks of friends in this manner and being able to draw a clear line of sight.

Yuck.
Author:  mertaal [ Fri May 09, 2014 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
Obviously wrongly, but I've always played it so that if you draw LOS through a model's base (but not over their head) that model is in the way.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Fri May 09, 2014 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
I like that ruling myself but sadly it's not RAW. I think the true LOS works well until people start abusing it in situations like this.
Author:  mertaal [ Fri May 09, 2014 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
Yep, as your picture shows, fiddling around with models in that way seems very gamey to me, and basically an exploitation of what is otherwise a reasonably simple and easy to apply LoS rule.

You can't move through model's base, so why would you be able to shoot through it without penalty? Ho hum!
Author:  Coenus Scaldingus [ Fri May 09, 2014 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
True Line of Sight is just that: if you can draw a straight, uninterrupted line from the archer's eye to the target, it's valid. Turning friendly models in the way to achieve that.. well, I wouldn't approve of that as it wastes time and looks stupid (and visual appeal is important), but it's technically not wrong. To find out that this one archer happens to have a clear view of an enemy banner through a massive messy melee is part of the fun, but to plan ahead in this way is quite clearly taking advantage of the rules - but again, it is allowed. To say that the entire base obstructs view is simply not the way it works, and I'd say the same should otherwise be true for models you wish to target: but we don't play with 1" wide columns.

Similar issue can arrise with height. You can only shoot 'through' a model you're in base contact with, but you can easily shoot over some or indeed dozens of others. This can be mounted archers behind infantry, models on a hill.. or standing rangers behind (several rows of) kneeling ranger models. If you have a 4-deep formation of rangers (first two kneeling, then two standing) you're taking advantage of the different poses available, while other archers could only shoot 2-deep (i.e. 'through' one friend in front). Cheap, sure, but also perfectly legal.

The nice thing with such loopholes is that you can quickly find out what kind of player you're dealing with by seeing how they interpret and apply these rules.
Author:  JamesR [ Fri May 09, 2014 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
I too wish the true LOS was restricted by bases (ie you cannot fire over a friendly base) it's simply explainable as being too close to hitting an ally (for Good) you never know if your friend might flinch or shift slightly to one side.
For evil it would be less explainable but I'd assume we could chalk it up to fear of being turned on by their fellows if they just shot one of their own from point blank
Author:  Fëanor, the mighty elf [ Fri May 09, 2014 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
mertaal wrote:
Apologies feanor- I misread your post.

No worries mate. ;)

Thanks Dr Grant for taking more time to explain it properly. :)
Author:  Pindergorn [ Fri May 09, 2014 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer, spearman, shieldwall
Dr Grant wrote:
Also, anyone who lies their models down for some sort of tactical advantage gets a giant eye-roll from me :roll:


Didn't say I do it myself, just that you can do it. :lol:

Theoretically, you might want to do it if you're holding a tight chokepoint with a 2 rank shield wall with no room for your archers to maneuver to get clear shots, and you want your archers to get in some potshot before the enemy charges.

At the Desolation of Stockport I actually had a game when I would have gotten more shots off pre-combat if I'd laid the front rank down.

My 24 Warriors of Arnor were in a tight circle between impassable rocks, holding the three chokepoints between the rocks with my Halbarad (armed with Arwen's Banner), Malbeth and Rangers in the centre. Whilst the enemy approached, I would have gotten 2 or 3 turns of shooting at the Morannon Orcs if I'd laid the front rank down, so my rangers could fire over the shoulder of the 2nd rank and over the prone front rank.

As it happened, my opponent had a Ringwraith on a Fellbeast, so I aimed all my shots at it instead of the Orcs.

It also helps that I had chosen to deploy in the far corner of the table edge, away from my opponents deployed warbands, giving me several more rounds of shooting than if I'd chosen to deploy close to the enemy as typical for Warband games.
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