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Crossbows and Pikes ?
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=30723		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Tungdil [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Crossbows and Pikes ?
Hey everyone.

Thought I would post in a new topic, instead of hijacking an Army Builder thread about Isengard!

Like the subject states, is it possible to equip Uruk-hai Warriors with both Crossbow and Pikes?

I can see nothing in the rulebook or FAQs that prohibits this, and both weapons are available to the Uruk-hai Warrior..
Author:  Frêrin [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
It's possible!
Author:  Dikey [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
I think is not possible. A model can't have 2-handed weapons and a bow. A pike is a spear that requires two hands (is not a 2hw strictu sensu), and the crossbow requires two hands too. I don't think is possible to have both: not enough hands
Author:  Frêrin [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
But you can have a banner, a shield and do a special strike with your sword, too ;) just imagine they lay down the pikes when they want to shoot and pick them up, when the enemy is near.
Author:  Dikey [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
Frêrin wrote:
But you can have a banner, a shield and do a special strike with your sword, too ;) just imagine they lay down the pikes when they want to shoot and pick them up, when the enemy is near.


But you get no bonus to Def from the shield.
Author:  J.R. [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
Dikey wrote:
Frêrin wrote:
But you can have a banner, a shield and do a special strike with your sword, too ;) just imagine they lay down the pikes when they want to shoot and pick them up, when the enemy is near.


But you get no bonus to Def from the shield.


I think you are wrond, you do get a def bonus with shield and banner in the hobbit rules.
Author:  Dikey [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
J.R. wrote:
Dikey wrote:
Frêrin wrote:
But you can have a banner, a shield and do a special strike with your sword, too ;) just imagine they lay down the pikes when they want to shoot and pick them up, when the enemy is near.


But you get no bonus to Def from the shield.


I think you are wrond, you do get a def bonus with shield and banner in the hobbit rules.


you are right, I just checked and it say nothing about the shield penalties. My mindset is still on the LOTR SBG. I remember that I couldn't gave Boromir both the shield and the banner, but apparently, this has changed.
Author:  Oldman Willow [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
"I think you are wrong, you do get a def bonus with shield and banner in the hobbit rules"

Another oversight

A pike is 18 feet long. In formation you have to come to attention and bring the pike up to be able to turn right. You would have to drop the pike to ready a crossbow. Then you could not move with the formation. It was not done.
Spear and shield is the most common formation and is very effective.Javelins are not spears. Spears are not pikes.

You can mix the unit but the pikes could not maneuver as well.This of course does not matter with this system as figures move as individuals.

EDIT: Post edited for antagonistic language.

PM sent.

Dr Grant
Author:  Tungdil [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
So what you are saying that as of now, there is nothing to prevent such usage, but this is probably an error or oversight?
Basically, it would be up to the opponent to agree to this usage or not.
Author:  Frêrin [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
I don't think it's an oversight, because the rules about how many weapons a model is able to use aren't that strict anymore. It's something that wasn't possible in lotr and is possible since hobbit.

Oldman Willow wrote:
You would have to drop the pike to ready a crossbow. Then you could not move with the formation.

Well, so a Uruk with a pike and xbow, that stopps (imaginerily lays down his pike) and doesn't move that turn is really realistic ;)

Besides they don't fight with their pike if they are in combat (not supporting), but with their handweapon, what do they do with their pike in this situation?

EDIT: PM sent

Dr Grant
Author:  LordElrond [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
Yeah. I think you should be able to. Remember that scene in Braveheart where they pick up the pikes? They still use their other weapons later on.
Author:  Dikey [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
putting the rules aside for a minute, let's just think of it in the spirit of the movies that we love. Look at the movie, we see that uruks with crossbow have a slight different armor and a different helmet. Is another division.
Author:  Frêrin [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
But when we see them marching to Helm's Deep or in the valley I can't remember seeing one without a pike ;)
Author:  Oldman Willow [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
You can shoot a crossbow from behind a large shield why not try that too.Use the big one like the dwarves have. Set stakes not pikes in the ground and dig hobbit traps.
The stakes in Braveheart are not 18 feet long.

I do not have a problem with the way you play have fun. If you do this my dwarves are bringing steam powered helicopters with incendiary bats :P
Author:  Dr Grant [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
Uruk-hai warriors can absolutely carry both a pike and a crossbow, this is absolutely fine and well within the parameters of the Hobbit SBG rules.

Here are some points that address various posts in the thread:

1) Whilst pikes aren't two-handed weapons, the rules do say that they "require two hands to use".

2) The rules specifically state that models CAN carry other wargear alongside two-handed weapons "slung on their backs".

3) You CAN carry a two-handed weapon and a bow

4) The rules specifically state that you can carry a shield (on your back) in addition to a pike so there's no reason that you wouldn't be able to carry a crossbow (on your back) in addition to a pike.

5) The GW FAQ states that a model armed with a banner or warhorn can be armed with a shield, spear etc.

6) You DO get the defence bonus from a shield if you carry a banner

This is certainly not an oversight, the rules about carrying wargear have changed for the Hobbit rules as above.

I attend about 1 tournament a month and have never seen anyone attempting to do this do gain an advantage. The primary reason being that to do this you would have to convert your models to have both pikes and crossbows. Whilst this may well be a tactically astute decision, clearly no-one on the UK tournament scene has ever deemed it tactically important enough to attempt it. Perhaps you will be the first? In my opinion I think pike armed Uruks with crossbows slung on their back would look cool and be very handy on the tabletop.

Whether or not a historical soldier would have carried a pike and a crossbow together is irrelevant. This is a tabletop game that attempts to recreate the events from the Middle Earth films within a set of rules. If we are confused by those rules then the answers can only be found in the rulebook or FAQs, not by looking at real-life history.
Author:  Oldman Willow [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
Dr Grant
I am sure that no one that knows the definition of a pike would agree with you. I think the rules were not proofread for content.There is no justification for the change.No one playtested it.
I was not telling the young man he could not do something but why he should not.

EDIT: Post edited for antagonistic language.

Dr Grant
Author:  Oldman Willow [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
Tungdil
I was looking through my collection for the goblins carrying shields for orc cross bows. They were made by RAFM. I could not find a photo they must no longer be in production.
Some Manlets are mobile others not.
Link for Image

The large shield would be cover, stakes an obstacle. That would be a powerful unit on the field. Have fun.
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
Oldman Willow wrote:
Dr Grant
I am sure that no one that knows the definition of a pike would agree with you.

I am sure that you don't understand that this is a game made by people who most likely didn't think it would come up. Pikes don't keep people from charging you like they would in real life. In real life, large units would charge each other, if one side had pikes, they would drop them as soon as someone got impaled upon/ broke their pikes. This is a skirmish game that is meant to be fun, not to be realistic. If the rules say you can do something, you can do it.
As for banners, that is definitely NOT an oversight. Holding a flag, especially some of those tiny flags that the elves use, only takes one hand. All you do is stick one end in the ground and hold it, while carrying a shield in the other to block incoming attacks. Just look at the King's Champion if you want a perfect example of how it's NOT an oversight.
Author:  Oldman Willow [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
You can certainly charge with Pikes. This game works very well.I know the people that wrote it. I know some of the play testers. I know what the intent of the rule are. Pikes kept cavalry at bay until the widespread use of pistols. You should mix berserkers with the pikes then attack. A game legal tactic would be to support orcs with shields. Cavalry will not impale itself. The pike unit would do it for them.
Did we not have a discussion about the realistic grip of arrows. Realistic one minute not realistic the next. What ever best supports your point? Pun intended.

EDIT: Post edited for antagonistic language.

Dr Grant
Author:  Draugluin [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crossbows and Pikes ?
First of all, no I did not change any part of my argument on the realistic handling of a bow.
Secondly, you don't need to tell me how to play the game, that was never part of this discussion. Nor did I say that pikes can't charge, I said that in real life, pikes would cause injuries to people before they get anywhere near the real life equivalent of base contact. You say the game works very well and that you know some of the playtesters, yet you said "I am sure that no one that knows the definition of a pike would agree with you. I think the rules were not proofread for content.There is no justification for the change.No one playtested it." heavily implying that you took offence to the way the rules were written.

Edit: PM sent

Dr Grant
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