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Fury, Overpowered?
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=32511		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  infinateremains [ Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Fury, Overpowered?
So in the current rules fury seems to be an auto include for most evil armies; it's just too good! I initially liked fury when I played but having watched multiple battle reports recently I have become aware how unbalanced it can seem. So I feel like opening up the question: how would you improve fury?

My own thoughts are;
1. Make fury an instant and then channelled into an exhaustion.
2. Make it a courage boost instead of an auto pass, probably a +2 courage and/or make it only affect terror tests.
3. Limit it to a 6+ save.

Would love to hear what others think.
Author:  Dikey [ Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fury, Overpowered?
I too think that when a model becames an auto-include option is because it's overpowered. I would remove the 5+ fate when channeled and follow your first option
Author:  Commissariat [ Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fury, Overpowered?
If you want to look for further inspiration, check out : GBHL's "Rules We Like to See: Main Rulebook"

Like it should be for some of the other spells (Sap Will: OP), there needs to be a risk or a trade-off if they are to remain as they are. I proposed the heretical "-1 courage", but it is hard to justify -1 courage unless the fluff of the spell was changed.

The final change I proposed was splitting Fury into two spells, something like:
- Fury: As in the rulebook but without the courage buff
- Frenzy: The courage buff
This solves a lot of problems right away. If Fury still ends up being too good, then you can add a further layer of change like the OP has mentioned.

+2 courage is effectively immune to courage. 2d6+5 is pretty easy to get 10 with. Not a big enough difference to nerf it any if that were the only change.
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fury, Overpowered?
I have thoughts.....

Being a user of fury and Isengard, Orcs, and goblins fairly often I have become very familiar with it.

It is an auto Include for several reasons. I don't see it as very overpowered but maybe a tad.

One major reason for an auto Include is definitely because a shaman is low points cost which is good in a Spam army or when you use giant evil Heroes and need numbers.

I think without a doubt the most important part about a shaman is the courage checks when your army is broken. It's just my opinion but what that leads me to is the point of that you still need to keep him alive the entire game to get his best use out of him and usually they don't have better than Defense 5 or 4. Two wounds...not special.

In addition I have failed a channel Fury Roll On A Snake Eyes or a one and a two about half a dozen times this year alone.

Finally..... everybody seems to think that the Fate save is so important and it really can help sometimes when you're killing through enemy troops and they just keep saving them it's very demoralizing.
But two things. Number one is that I've had games where I barely made more than three or four fury saves the whole game. Channeled.....

Number two when it comes down to it again I honestly believe your troops past and courage checks to be able to charge Heroes and monsters with Terror is much more important than the saves.

If you look at a lot of evil armies defense tends to be at 5 or higher anyway so getting kills on them is not as easy as good too.

When it comes down to hit...there are many options.

1-make it instant with a save of 6 and no courage checks. Channel it to make it run the full game.
2-keep it the same but channeling adds a save of 6 not 5
3-remove the save completely and make fury only count for courage checks.
Honestly.....even as a player who uses fury all the time, I think that's ok.

Most armies with fury have high defense anyway.
Author:  Bronf [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fury, Overpowered?
magic is powerful in general. i don't see a reason to change this one spell when others are just as effective
Author:  jdizzy001 [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fury, Overpowered?
I don't mind the "fate" roll, its the couragebenny I would like to see removed.
Author:  Tar-Minastir [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fury, Overpowered?
I don’t think it’s overpowered. I think that it dominates the evil meta because of the way scenarios are structured. The standard scenarios end when one side has been reduced to a certain percentage of their models – 25% is common. When an evil army breaks, its courage is so low that a given warrior (C 2) only has a 41.67% chance of passing. Captains (C 3) have 58% chance. So an evil army can go from its break point of 50% to 25% in the next turn. While elves basically ignore the break point. So the only way to keep an evil force even marginally operational in the last turn or two of the game is with shamans. I lament how many times I have lost domination because even though I controlled enough objectives to win during the game, my boys just vaporized on the last turn.

So I would propose a two pronged solution to make fury less automatic. First restructure the scenarios so they focus on accomplishing an objective rather inflicting damage. For instance, in domination, VPs could be awarded at the end of every turn, with the game end triggered by the first side to reach a predetermined number. Then evil could win without necessarily having to get past the break point.

Secondly, redesign fury. I would take the fate roll out entirely since it really isn’t that important. A model is rarely saved. Then, fury would modify courage to a blanket 4, unless it’s already higher in which case there’s no effect. Channeled fury would raise courage to a 5. This way courage is not disregarded but evil would run less frequently.
Author:  Bronf [ Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fury, Overpowered?
Tar-Minastir wrote:
So I would propose a two pronged solution to make fury less automatic. First restructure the scenarios so they focus on accomplishing an objective rather inflicting damage. For instance, in domination, VPs could be awarded at the end of every turn, with the game end triggered by the first side to reach a predetermined number. Then evil could win without necessarily having to get past the break point.

Secondly, redesign fury. I would take the fate roll out entirely since it really isn’t that important. A model is rarely saved. Then, fury would modify courage to a blanket 4, unless it’s already higher in which case there’s no effect. Channeled fury would raise courage to a 5. This way courage is not disregarded but evil would run less frequently.


doing this would make shamans not really that appealing to take at all. they cant do much in a fight since they just a basic troop stat wise. transfix can help but that's on a 1/3 chance of it going off.

i said it before magic in general is powerful. redoing this one spell you would have to redo the other spells. my fav good spell is aura of dismay since it can just remove a model from combat for a turn

if a good side wants some of that 5+ save take melbeth then
Author:  Shapore [ Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fury, Overpowered?
Well, I actually have to say I completely agree with you. I do find fury, and Evil magic in general, to be much stronger than its Good counterpart.
Fury being that quite-easy-to-cast-spell that it is, becomes a truly devastating element when matched with a Ringwraith who can sap will at 3+ and then transfix (always at 3+) enemy heroes. Meanwhile, your uruk pikeblocks/berserkers can just charge straight through his troops....
To tell the truth, I have always found funny how unbalanced magic is in the game. Elves mages being among the weakest (stormcaller) or most pricey units (galadriel/celeborn/elrond), while a simple 70 points ringwraith or a shaman may have such a devastating impact with low dice rolls (4 required in the worst-case scenario).
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