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http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18751		 Page 2 of 4
Author:  Highlordell [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
General Elessar wrote:
Highlordell wrote:
Harad:

Outfight = 4
Outshoot = 4
Outnumber = 4
Outmaneuver = 3



I disagree:

Outfight = 3 (low defence)
Outshoot = 4
Outnumber = 4
Outmaneuver = 5 (cheap and wide range of cavalry)


I have to disagree with the Outfight thing, although they do have low defence, if we are talking about Harad in general that means Corsairs and Mahud, in both those lists nealry every unit has F4, then there is the fact that the Mahud have 2 attacks and 4 strength, I think that deserves 4 to Outfight to be honest but its up to you.
Author:  Hirumith, the Grey Knight [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
A lot of the ratings I'm seeing seem to lean towards 4's and 5's, and I can't help but think that it's either a) a bit of favoritism or b) a different interpretation of the 1-5 scale than what I was thinking.

Maybe to help with giving out designations, we should have a little more than just a number scale?

How's this:

1 - The army is truly terrible in this particular area, worst (or tied for worst) among all armies.

2 - This area is a major weakness for the army, and they are generally not very good at it.

3 - This army is average in this area. That means something like shoot 4+, fight 3, defense 5, etc. etc.

4 - This is one of the army's major strengths, and they are generally better in this area than most other armies are.

5 - This army is the best (or tied for best) in this specific area, better than all other armies.

And for the categories:

Outfight - we should really only be looking at Fight, Strength, Attacks, and melee-oriented special rules and equipment.

Outshoot - Shoot value, Range and strength of ranged attacks is really what counts here. "Swarm" armies don't get points for potentially having a lot of archers, that's accounted for in outnumber.

Outnumber - Simply how many models you can get on the field, so basically we're just talking about point values.

Outmanuever - Speed of the models. Frankly this is just going to be a 3 for most armies, because almost everyone moves at the same rate. I'd give elves a bit of a bump since they're all woodland creatures, and armies with lots of cavalry would obviously get a bump too. Slower races like dwarves are probably only a 2, hobbits a 1.

Outlast - In my opinion, this is where Defense should be accounted for. Outlasting the enemy isn't only a matter of passing Courage tests, but also keeping your numbers up so that you don't have to start taking them in the first place.

===========================================================================================================

So, to give an example of how I would use my rating system, here's my breakdown of Gondor:

Fight - 3 (average humans in nearly all regards)
Shoot - 3/4 (again average, although a heavily ranger-themed army could warrant a 4)
Outnmuber - 2 (all those heavy infantry and powerful heroes are expensive! bringing your numbers down in comparison to most foes)
Manuever - 3 (mostly normal infantry, about average in their numbers of cavalry)
Outlast - 4 (heavily armored troops, many heroes with high courage)

And for fun, let's look at Isengard:

Fight - 4 (high fight and strength values, and lots of pikes!)
Shoot - 2/3 (crossbows are good, but most people don't include too many since they're so expensive $-wise, and your only other option is scouts with orc bows who are only average)
Outnmuber - 2 (you can use cheap orcs and dunlendings to boost your numbers, but uruks still break the bank)
Manuever - 3 (pretty standard)
Outlast - 4 (heavily armored troops, high courage)
Author:  Mor-galad of Greenwood [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
So I included army defense with outfight since the models defense only comes into play in the fight. I'm not saying you should change the criteria or anything, I'm just explaining my previous (and erroneous) understanding.



In that case I would modify my Woodland realms to a 3 for outlast. Higher courage is offset by lower than average defense.
I would also modify outfight up from a 3 to a 4. Higher fight values and Throwing weapons = everybody in the army will wound at some point in the fight.
Author:  Hirumith, the Grey Knight [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:35 am ]
Post subject: 
I would even be tempted to bump them to a 5 for outfight, given that they have the best fight value of any standard infantry alongside high elves.
Author:  whafrog [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Good scale, Hirumith, helps keep the scores realistic
Author:  General Elessar [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Highlordell wrote:
General Elessar wrote:
Highlordell wrote:
Harad:

Outfight = 4
Outshoot = 4
Outnumber = 4
Outmaneuver = 3



I disagree:

Outfight = 3 (low defence)
Outshoot = 4
Outnumber = 4
Outmaneuver = 5 (cheap and wide range of cavalry)


I have to disagree with the Outfight thing, although they do have low defence, if we are talking about Harad in general that means Corsairs and Mahud, in both those lists nealry every unit has F4, then there is the fact that the Mahud have 2 attacks and 4 strength, I think that deserves 4 to Outfight to be honest but its up to you.


If you include Mahud then 4 is ok.


Hirumith, the Grey Knight, I think the defence should be taken into account for Outshoot. Otherwise I think your scale is good.
Author:  Hirumith, the Grey Knight [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
My reasoning on keeping defense out of outfight and outshoot is that it directly plays into survivability (outlast), but not into an army's ability to cause damage in melee or shooting.

For instance, a heavily armored guy with a bow and an unarmored guy with a bow are equally good shooters, even though the armored guy is harder to kill.

We could take defense into account in other areas, but then some armies (Woodland realms especially) seem like they'd be penalized in at least 3 categories because of low defense.
Author:  General Elessar [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hirumith, the Grey Knight wrote:
We could take defense into account in other areas, but then some armies (Woodland realms especially) seem like they'd be penalized in at least 3 categories because of low defense.


Maybe they should be penalized in three categories, I always thought the Wood Elves Defence 3 made them rubbish.
Author:  Highlordell [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Meh, you get used to playing with 3 Defence (Corsairs here), just make sure you either go in or hang back, and NEVER pull out of an attack and use terrrain to your advantage.


Maybe we could make one of these 'Statistic lists' for each army available; then we could put them all in once place (perhaps a Sticky in the 'Beginners' forum) and it would help new players choose their army based on their play style and which attributes they prefer.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
General Elessar wrote:
For Rivendell, I would boost Outfight and Outmaneuver by one.


It's only a 5 or 6 to wound an elf. The only significant advantage is FV. They still only have S3 and D5 which I think makes them 4. Outmaneurver is hard when you have normal moving, no cavalry, and low-number force (and I should know). 2 I think is reasonable.
Author:  Mor-galad of Greenwood [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Somebody do one for Rohan.


Highlordell maybe on to something here. We could subject the statlines for each army to some peer review and sticky it in the beginners section.

I think it would be a very comprehensive resource.
Author:  antlion [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Thank you Hirumith, the Grey Knight for making such a necessary post. 8)

Here is my opinion of Dwarves:

Fight - 4 (high fight and strength values, access to 2 attack elites and two handed warriors/elites )
Shoot - 3/4 (Short range strength 3 or 3+ hit bows, in larger games the ballista puts the dwarves solidly on 4)
Outnumber - 3 (You can use almost only warriors and/or cheap(ish) heroes, but will sacrifice fighting capability to do this)
Manuever - 2 (5 inch movement. You won't realise how irritating this is until you play with them. Throwing weapons would help improve this.)
Outlast - 5 (Heroes and warriors have highest defence and very good courage values comparative to others.)

And Rohan:

Fight - 3/4 (normal fight, but access to fight 4 and Grimbold's Halingas allow strength 4 )
Shoot - 3 (normal bows)
Outnumber - 3 (an army of Rohan with cavalry will not be great at out numbering and without access to supporting spears numbers can not be utilised)
Manoeuvre - 5 (large array of cavalry, some with 12 inch movement. Also mounted archers and foot throwing weapons allow decent manoeuvring and firing in the same turn)
Outlast - 3 (average defence and courage values)
Author:  Dwarf Lord of Ered Luin [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Erebor
out-fight -4 (all dwarves have F4 and their elites with S4 are deadly)
out-shoot -4 (their shoot value is average but S3 bows, unless you are using rangers, coupled with a high defence make them dangerous archers despite their bows short ranged)
out-number -2 (dwarves are expensive but their heroes can pack a mighty punch at a much lower cost than some armies which allows you to spend more points on warriors)
out-manuever -1 (their slow movement and lack of cavalry lets them down)
outlast -5 (heavily armoured and with an above average courage combined with Dain's stand fast makes them a very durable force)

I'm not sure about out-shoot, maybe it should be a 3 instead.
Great idea Highlordell, we should definitely pursue this.

(I've also revised my review of moria.)
Author:  spuds4ever [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:33 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm also with making this a sticky (but obviously more detailed profiles than this.)

Mordor:

Outfight:4 (lots of strong elites like BGoBD morgul stalkers etc. orcs are still not too shabby on their own, basically Rohirim but with lower courage and SV.)
Outshoot:2 (bad archery from pretty much everyone except trackers)
Outnumber:5 (orcs can perform true miracles)
Outlast:2(though they have low courage, they still have shamans and some brave heroes to keep them in line.)

Corsairs:

Outfight:4 (FV 4 plus cheap, effective reavers)
Outshoot:4 (arbalesters!)
Outnumber:3
Outlast:2 (low defence and not particuarly high courage except from Dalamyr.)
Author:  General Elessar [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Should we save 1 and 5 for the the very worst and best, or should we also apply them to other armies? For example, Dwarves could easily be given a 1 for Outmaneuver, but then what do you give Hobbits? Perhaps the scale should be 1 to 10?
Author:  spuds4ever [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
General Elessar wrote:
Should we save 1 and 5 for the the very worst and best, or should we also apply them to other armies? For example, Dwarves could easily be given a 1 for Outmaneuver, but then what do you give Hobbits? Perhaps the scale should be 1 to 10?


I think that would create too many dissagreements myself. Just got back from my conformation :D .
Author:  Hirumith, the Grey Knight [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Personally I would say keep the scale at 1-5, because with fewer numbers means the rating becomes less subjective.

So for dwarves and manueverability, I'd think give them a 1 (even though they're not actually quite as bad as Hobbits, the slow movement combined with no cavalry makes them basically tied for worst). I would save 2's for an army like corsairs, Numenoreans, or high elves who, although moving at normal speed, have no cavalry options and therefore are outmanuevered by 'average' armies.

Haha, I just realized that in the original post I suggested dwarves should be a 2, but after thinking about it 1 seems to make more sense.

On the defense issue - we definitely could try to start factoring it into melee and shooting, as well as outlast, although in my opinion that almost makes outlast a redundant category since it seems a little silly to have a stat devoted just to courage.

Also, we are talking about "on the whole" ratings, here, so for Woodland Realms it's true that you have a lot of unarmored guys, but you do still get Galadhrim as well (I guess not if you're playing a Mirkwood themed list, but the game tends to sort of generally lump the two together).

Also, for something like Rohan's access to elite warriors I would still only give them a 3 in outfight, because almost everyone has some access to elite warriors. In fact, I would only knock you down to a 2 if you didn't have at least a few elites in your army (or had low average fight values, like goblins). Conversely, an entire army of Grimbold's Helmingas would probably warrant a 4 given the strength boost (similarly, an Isengard scout force lead by Mauhur could easily warrant a 4 for manueverability).

Lastly, I realized we're going to run into interesting distinctions pretty soon with who counts under the flag of which army (in fact we already have with Harad, and Woodland Realms is another good example). So I s'pose it helps if, when doing a rating, we either clarify who counts for that list or give brief explanations of the ranks we decided on.

antlion wrote:
Thank you Hirumith, the Grey Knight for making such a necessary post. 8)


You bet! I'm glad it's been useful so far.

================================================================

So with that said and done, how about Hobbits! This is a pure hobbit force, no rangers, wizards, or Bombadils helping them out.

Fight - 1 (lowest fight values in the game, and no elites or particularly good heroes to bring them up)
Shoot - 3 (decent shoot values, but low strength and range)
Numbers - 5 (dirt cheap, enough said)
Manuever - 1 (with the lowest movement and no mounted warriors, these guys are solidly in last)
Outlast - 2 (low defense, average courage)
Author:  agincourt777 [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
galadhrim

outfight 4 (consistently high FV and access to knights n' pikes.)
outshoot 5 (best archers in the game)
outnumber 2 (basic warriors are expensive, elites are very expensive)
outmanouvere 4 (woodland creature, cavalry, horses ignore difficult terrain)
outlast 3 (very low defence but high courage)
Author:  Highlordell [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Numenor

Outfight: 4 (F4 Warriors and 2 very fighty heroes one of which gets a free Heroic combat each turn)
Outshoot: 3 (Basic bow armed warriors, no variation)
Outnumber: 3 (Avergae points cost, no elites to bog down numbers)
Outmaouvre: 2 (No cavalry)
Outlast: 4 (High Courage from both their heroes)
Author:  General Elessar [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hirumith, the Grey Knight wrote:
So for dwarves and manueverability, I'd think give them a 1 (even though they're not actually quite as bad as Hobbits, the slow movement combined with no cavalry makes them basically tied for worst). I would save 2's for an army like corsairs, Numenoreans, or high elves who, although moving at normal speed, have no cavalry options and therefore are outmanuevered by 'average' armies.



The Outmaneuver is, in my opinion, the trickiest. What's the average? An army with a 6in move and no cavalry? Or with cavalry?
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