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"By the book" Ents and trolls
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18315		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  spuds4ever [ Sun May 02, 2010 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  "By the book" Ents and trolls
In the Two Towers when the ents besiege Orthanc I think Tolkien meant that ents were supposed to be able to take on dozens upon dozens of orcs and clearly they did as they wiped out all of Saruman's orcs even though they were few. I think monsters should be much more difficult to kill and they should be stronger, like in Moria when all the fellowship are almost killed by one cave troll. But in SBG a cave troll could be easily smashed by someone like Boromir which IMO is completely unrealistic.

I think their stats should look something like this:

Ent: 200pts.

F S D A W C
5/4+8 8 5 7 7

+special rules etc.
Mordor Troll: 180pts.

F S D A W C
5/5+ 7 8 5 7 4

+ special rules etc.

I have given them relatively low F to represent their clumsiness and such.
Author:  Queen Berúthiel [ Sun May 02, 2010 11:55 am ]
Post subject: 
wasn´t the cave troll only in the movies?
Author:  spuds4ever [ Sun May 02, 2010 12:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Oh yeah, my bad, I'm thinking of the goblin king in the books.
Author:  whafrog [ Sun May 02, 2010 1:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Queen Berúthiel wrote:
wasn´t the cave troll only in the movies?


No, it was in the book too. Boromir hacks at its arm, but his sword is notched. Frodo stabs it in the foot with Sting and it runs off, which means they don't have to deal with it in Balin's tomb.
Author:  whafrog [ Sun May 02, 2010 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "By the book" Ents and trolls
spuds4ever wrote:
In the Two Towers when the ents besiege Orthanc I think Tolkien meant that ents were supposed to be able to take on dozens upon dozens of orcs


I'm pretty okay with how the SBG game currently handles them. When the ents went to Isengard, they did wait until the army left before they made their assault. You make them too expensive and they become unusable, because the game still favours quantity over quality, and there is very little that can be done about it. However, if we push the "average" profile to S4, D4, then I'd want to boost their equivalent stats by 1 to keep pace.
Author:  General Elessar [ Sun May 02, 2010 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "By the book" Ents and trolls
spuds4ever wrote:
I think monsters should be much more difficult to kill and they should be stronger, like in Moria when all the fellowship are almost killed by one cave troll. But in SBG a cave troll could be easily smashed by someone like Boromir which IMO is completely unrealistic.


And then later Gandalf, when defending the Gates of Minas Tirith, takes down an armoured troll with one hit... but that's all in the film, and this is a "By the Book" project.


spuds4ever wrote:
I have given them relatively low F to represent their clumsiness and such.


Won't that make them very vulnerable to strong heroes (which is what you were complaining about)?
Author:  Highlordell [ Sun May 02, 2010 5:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Won't that make them very vulnerable to strong heroes (which is what you were complaining about)?

Exactly what i thought, if you were making it so that it was a weakness so they could actually be killed then i understand but it still should be at least 6, because after all you can always Transfix them.

Yeh, i think the profiles you have thought up with are quite good, but improving the FV would allow them to kill their points worth, and not be undone by a hero with a slightly higher FV, and also they would actually pay off their points, and it would not be quantity over quality.
Author:  Mouth-of-Sauron [ Sun May 02, 2010 7:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, Trolls could be made a little bit harder to kill, maybe give them 4-5 wounds and a higher defence ??? since the Cave troll in moria did take a lot of beating before death, but then again it was in the movie. Or it should have at least some kinda defence bonus against bows...?
Author:  General Elessar [ Tue May 04, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mouth-of-Sauron wrote:
Or it should have at least some kinda defence bonus against bows...?


Why so? Surely such a large target would be a vulnerable to archery.
Author:  emperor_thompson [ Wed May 05, 2010 1:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Personally, I would start with their current profiles, and perhaps increase the strength/defence by 1 to keep pace with the proposed change in default stats, mentioned earlier by whafrog. Giving them another attack and wound would also make them more effective, for only a moderate increase in cost.
Author:  the director [ Wed May 05, 2010 2:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
i agree they may need more wounds, but surely the way a troll should be is ccumbersome when attacking, he doesn't attack quickly it's a slow strong movement. get what i mean?

i propose High defence, wounds and strength, but low attacks imho
Author:  emperor_thompson [ Thu May 06, 2010 5:53 am ]
Post subject: 
While a troll may be clumsy, I think of their high attack value and fighting skill comes from their size. A troll could easily wipe out a line of soldiers with a single swing of his hammer, so needs to have an attack value large enough to kill multiple enemies at a time. Also, with their long reach even a skilled warrior will have difficulty getting close enough to get a good hit in. Well, that is how I see it anyway.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Thu May 06, 2010 3:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
emperor_thompson wrote:
While a troll may be clumsy, I think of their high attack value and fighting skill comes from their size. A troll could easily wipe out a line of soldiers with a single swing of his hammer, so needs to have an attack value large enough to kill multiple enemies at a time. Also, with their long reach even a skilled warrior will have difficulty getting close enough to get a good hit in. Well, that is how I see it anyway.


Exactly, they need to have a lot of attacks but if they have high fight they will be invincible.
Author:  Finli O'Tengo [ Thu May 06, 2010 4:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree with a lot of what has been posted. The stat that I think needs to be increased is wounds. I'd like to see the cave troll with defense 7 and 4 or 5 wounds.
Author:  the director [ Thu May 06, 2010 5:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
maybe give thr troll or ent a special rule by which it's attacks are equal to the number of enemies fighting it. to represent one sweep of the hammer or whatever?
Author:  Mouth-of-Sauron [ Thu May 06, 2010 6:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
i would give them the rule of stupidity...

roll 1-3 the troll is clumbsy and rolls only 1-2 attack dices, and has only fight value of 4-5

roll 4-6 troll is determind to fight, and rolls 3-4 attack dices and has fight value of 7-8



#The attacks and fight values vary cause I couldnt really tell which would be more appropriate...

Though this is a stupid rule, it could give some reality to them, well not to mention that they could even kill their own kin (Cave troll, in Moria, kill about 3 goblins when trying to attack Gimli) :rofl:
Author:  General Elessar [ Thu May 06, 2010 6:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
the director wrote:
maybe give thr troll or ent a special rule by which it's attacks are equal to the number of enemies fighting it. to represent one sweep of the hammer or whatever?


I like that idea. Apart from the fact it would make the troll very vulnerable to powerful heroes. It might work though if you boosted the Fight to seven or eight.
Author:  the director [ Thu May 06, 2010 7:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
but if you think about it, films or books, it's often the heros that kill the trolls
Author:  spuds4ever [ Fri May 07, 2010 11:36 am ]
Post subject: 
the director wrote:
but if you think about it, films or books, it's often the heros that kill the trolls


But a mere cavetroll almost pwns the whole fellowship in the book and the film and that included some of the most powerful (if not the most powerful) heroes in Middle-Earth.
Author:  Mouth-of-Sauron [ Fri May 07, 2010 12:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
well Gandalg was Equivalent to Sauron, Aragorn was the greatest Hero of the 3rd Age, Legolas was an Elven prince and Gimli was of noble decent? of I am not mistaken and Boromir was greatest Gondorian Captain.


Though it´s strange that Gandalf was able to best the Balrog while he could not single handedly kill the troll, but then again Balrog was more magical being than the latter, so there could be connection magic vs. magic.
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