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Theoden, King of Rohan
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28077		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  JamesR [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Theoden, King of Rohan
So in recent videos GBHL James and Jamie have said that Theoden needs an alternate profile to better match his character, especially at Pelenor. So I set out to create one. C&C always welcome.

Theoden, King of Rohan.......100 points

F____S___D___A___W___C__M/W/F
5/-__4___7___3____3___6__3/3/1

Wargear:
Theoden, King of Rohan wears heavy armor, carries a shield and is armed with Heugrim (sword)
(for those cheesey power gamers)

At the additional listed points Theoden may take the following
Armored Horse...............15 points

Special Rules:
Heroic Charge - At the beginning of the move phase, Theoden, King of Rohan may expend a point of might to call a Heroic Charge. For that turn Theoden and all allied mounted Rohan models (heroes and troops) that are within 10" of Theoden, King of Rohan gain +1 to wound. Exactly as if they were armed with a lance (note: this bonus may stack with any similar bonus, such as a 2-hand weapon)

King of the Riddermark - Theoden, King of Rohan's stand fast is 12" rather than 6"

Expert Rider
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
I like it, much more flavourful. To differentiate, you could call this profile "Theoden Ednew" as that translates to "the renewed" and is the epithet that the King was given after Gandalf healed him at Edoras.
Author:  rigg1313 [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
That's one serious top quality profile!!!! Someone might actually field theoden if he had a profile like that! The only thing I query is his fight worth a 6? I mean is he a better fighter than Eomer knight of the pellenor who has a fight 5.
Author:  Gwaryan [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
Does the Heroic Charge wound bonus apply to all models or just those who charged? I'd also say `Theoden is armed with Heugrim (sword)`, as I like seeing unique weapons being referenced, but that's just a personal thing :)
Author:  whafrog [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
I'm not sure the F6 or all those 3s are warranted. He's not Aragorn, nor Eomer, but he is a good leader. The special rule reflects that, but the rest seems too potent.

Just for comparison, here's one I created a few years ago scaled more to the old profile. I think my special rule is probably too complicated, but I think yours should be available more than once per game:

Theoden, King of Rohan

Code:
F   S   D   A   W   C   M  W  F  Pts
4/- 3   6   2   2   5   3  0  2  60


Theoden was the last King of Rohan in the 3rd Age. While he spent years under the will and seduction of Grima Wormtongue (servant of Saruman), his mind was freed by Gandalf and he rose again to lead his people to glory. Though an old man with failing strength, Theoden is still a potent leader.

Wargear: as king, Theoden has access to the best equipment and horses. He wears heavy armour, and wields his ancient sword (hand weapon). He may take the following equipment at additional cost:
Shield 5 points
Lance 5 points
Mearas 10 points (moves 12")
Armoured Mearas 15 points (moves 12")

Special Rules:
Expert Rider: (see main rules)
Rohirrim: Gain +1 to Fight score when charging
Fire and slaughter!: Theoden is an inspiring leader of the moment. Whenever he spends a point of Might on a heroic move, his Fight and Strength, and the Strength of any models involved in “With Me!”, are increased by 1 for the duration of the turn. As well, whenever he spends a point of Might on a heroic combat, his Fight and Strength, and the Strength of any models involved in the fight, are increased by 1 for the duration of the turn. These effects are not cumulative if he calls both in the same turn. The increase in Fight is cumulative with the Rohirrim special rule.
Author:  JamesR [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
I agree on the fight 6. I also will remove the once per game part of the Heroic Charge rule. I had the single-time use because I didn't want it OP. Also the fight 6 was to show he was kinda the "hero of the hour" but I agree fight 5 fits better.

Original post edited to show the updates
Author:  JamesR [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
Gwaryan wrote:
Does the Heroic Charge wound bonus apply to all models or just those who charged? I'd also say `Theoden is armed with Heugrim (sword)`, as I like seeing unique weapons being referenced, but that's just a personal thing :)


Only those who charged, that's why I equated it to a lance.
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
I agree with the new rules fight 5 and all the rest but I think he needs to be like 115 pts
Author:  JamesR [ Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
I agree with the new rules fight 5 and all the rest but I think he needs to be like 115 pts


He is. When you give him his horse :rofl: but without it Heroic Charge and expert rider are in essence lost so he becomes basically Suldan with +2 Def which puts him at the rough area he should be in cost. Plus its Rohan, they need a slight buff lol.
Author:  Hodush [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
I had been thinking about changes for Theoden too, and I like what you have put forward. I think as a minimum, the 12" stand fast would result in him being used more frequently and I wouldn't put an extra points cost on his profile as he has a few drawbacks already (such as lower fight, attacks, wounds and will).

Having said that, they had to get Gamling/Hama in the movies because Bernard Hill apparently didn't have the voice for it (in two towers warg attack, but I think he nailed it in ROTK.) So I am not sure how much weight to put on that - he certainly was depicted as very brave in the books, but still maybe not a vocal leader I would associate with a 12" stand fast...

The standard is for special rules to be 6" or 12", so I would probably stick to that just for simplicity's sake. Also, the heroic move covers 6", so it would be much easier to tell which troops get the bonus than more than 6" - you would have to do the heroic move, then see who was not engaged, then work out who gets the +1 again. Sure its not too much work, but we all like things as simple and easy to remember as possible.

I think getting +1 to wound or +1 fight value or any combination of +1 fight, strength and to wound are the most unique/enjoyable options. I would be happy with +1 to wound but I think there is the chance to do so much more to make him unique and make him much more enjoyable to use tactically.
You don't want to put too much in to make cav OP in that turn, so I would probably stay away from re-rolls to wound. +1 Fight would enable him to charge F6 heroes and make some very climactic battles. This way he still loses to trolls etc just as Aragorn does, but can take down leaders just as he does in the books. +1 courage is appropriate I think, even if it is a fools courage. +1 strength is better than +1 to wound, partially because it syncs better with the +1 Fight but also because it CAN be helpful, but probably would change only 50% of the to wound rolls, meaning it is not as overpowered (and therefore costs many more points) as +1 to wound. However, it would be quite significant for the Riders around him. It might be a bit much, but basically I see this as the part at Helms deep and Minas Tirith where Rohan dominates, even when they would normally find it difficult to beat then wound uruks.

I also wouldn't want another Eomer KOTP profile, so I would leave him at 2 attacks & 2 wounds - he is quite old after all - just up the fate if he isn't survivable enough. I would want to see his profile make Gamlings banner more utilised and to do that they both still need to be affordable, the best way I feel is by leaving him out of the power hero (3 attack, 3 might) category. Anyway, those are my suggestions - I like what has been proposed so far, just giving my thoughts on how I would ENJOY playing with or against Theoden more in the future.
Author:  LordElrond [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
I think he should be a bit less points wise, because Boromir of Gondor mounted is the same points, and he is somuchbetter, IMO.
Author:  Hodush [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
If you upgrade him from his current profile to what is now in the original post he would cost 100 pts excluding the extra courage and 2 special rules.
Author:  LordElrond [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
Yes, but that's the whole point. The reason his profile needs changing is partly because the current one is underpowered, so working up from the current one is not really a true reflection of how many points he should cost.
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
JamesR wrote:
LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
I agree with the new rules fight 5 and all the rest but I think he needs to be like 115 pts


He is. When you give him his horse :rofl: but without it Heroic Charge and expert rider are in essence lost so he becomes basically Suldan with +2 Def which puts him at the rough area he should be in cost. Plus its Rohan, they need a slight buff lol.


I guess I forgot that he needs the horse lol. I kinda think there should be a modification to that. What he gets randomly sniped by one lonely bowmen before he even reaches the enemy. That would be horrible.
Author:  pokyha [ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
make him be able to use his fate on his horse, or give his horse fate. Except his fate can't be used against the witchking ;)
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
Ive looked over profiles trying to think what would best fit him.....
How about also a modification to Imrahils?

The King is old....I still believe he should be Fight 5
F: 5 S: 4 D: 7 A: 2 W: 2 C: 6 /// M: 3 W: 3 F: 0
Pts: 135
Wargear: Armored horse
Special Rules:
Theoden, A King of the Riddermark: All Rohhirm within 10" of Theoden, including Theoden himself, count Theoden as a banner.
Ride for Wrath, Ride for Ruin!: Theoden and any Riders of Rohan within 10" get +1 to fight value any turn they have charged. Note* It says riders of Rohan, so this specifically doesnt stack with things like Westfold Redshields and applies ONLY to Riders of Rohan profile.
Expert Rider.


Opinions? I often dont make profiles balanced from what ive been told so let me know.....He does have two awesome rules, but with Rohan being weak, and pretty much when you make all mounted, your troops are almost all minimum over 12 points, its not like youre getting a huge bonus here.

I think the banner thing will make Rohan suck a lot less and a tight cavalry formation(like in the movies) is much more potent.
Author:  WhoelsebutHaldir [ Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
I think maybe 3 wounds or a fate would be more fitting. He seems like he would die way to easily.... Or maybe 1 will and 2 fate?
Also I would lower the points cost, for 135pts he only has 2A and 2wounds with no fate. I don't think he would last very long. Maybe 110? Or 115?
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
WhoelsebutHaldir wrote:
I think maybe 3 wounds or a fate would be more fitting. He seems like he would die way to easily.... Or maybe 1 will and 2 fate?
Also I would lower the points cost, for 135pts he only has 2A and 2wounds with no fate. I don't think he would last very long. Maybe 110? Or 115?


Maybe three wounds....maybe....but he does die easily, and this is the Pellenor profile......

Theres no way he should have more attacks than Legolas or some other heros like him. And I can say maybe 1 fate....but no character that dies has above 1.

Between his two attacks, 3 on the charge, the banner, and 3 might, he should be sustainable. 110 would have to cut out a special rule for sure. The banner youre forgetting assures he always has 3 attacks in terms of winning the fight, and therefore, remaining alive.

But Idk.....thats just how I saw it when I did it. Maybe Im wrong.
Author:  Grungehog [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
Theres no way he should have more attacks than Legolas or some other heros like him. And I can say maybe 1 fate....but no character that dies has above 1.


Thorin has 3 fate, the only dwarf with 3 fate in the game at that, yet he dies at the battle of five armies.
Author:  Hodush [ Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Theoden, King of Rohan
I think it would be best to stick with low fate and low wounds as this is essentially his dying profile. Its clear in the books he was a good fighter & took out the enemy leaders, but he couldn't stand up to the Witch King, neither could anyone else but Gandalf really. So I personally would just be tweaking him to make him more combat effective & leave the rest the same.

I think the heroic charge or banner do the right job, he doesn't need 3 special rules as interesting as they are, and the simpler the better.
Heroic charge sounds good for a rule name, I would suggest it being a free strike at their strength value (just like a throwing weapon). This reflects the devastation of the charge of the Rohirrim in the movies & book better than the SBG can do (without making cavalry bases 25mm but longer).

So 1 S4 hit on the charge for Theoden, a "with me" cry so anyone else within 6" gets their S3 or whatever hit when they charge. If the model is killed, they can charge someone else (but no free hit this time - OP). This sounds good, but means you have to have priority, or you obviously would be charged first. So its a choice between heroic move and charge essentially.
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