Has anyone had any experience using these fellas yet? The models are really nice and I would like to squeeze a few into my hunter orc army.

I feel like they might add a bit of survivability against shooting with their high defence when equipped with shields but would I not be better off with just more hunter orcs?

Also their special rule doesnt seem to be very good as they could just feint to get the same effect, seeing as both dwarves and elves are higher fight values anyway.

What do you guys think?

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Uruk's are much better imo. Gundabads are more of a thematic ally choice for Hunter Orcs though I suppose.

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It's somewhat situational, but remember that the special rule applies to spear (pike) support, which would ordinarily not be allowed to feint.

They cost the same as Uruk warriors, but with 1 less F. Their special rule doesn't even come close to compensating for that. However, if you're like me and prefer to take an army all from the same list, they're a perfectly viable and strong troop choice with Hunter Orcs. Just because something very similar from another list has a slight edge doesn't mean they're bad, it just means they're not optimal.

Luckily for us though, SBG isn't a game that requires optimised lists to win.

Personally, I just ask my self if I want to be "that guy" who takes watchers of Karna, a Shade, four Warg Marauders and Witch King on Fell Beast all in the same list, just because winning is more important than having a cool, thematic game.

Answer, no. I don't. So I'll be happy with Gundabads with my Hunter Orcs .

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Mertaal's bang on the money here and it's something that often frustrates me about feedback on online army lists. I often hear people ask questions like "I've got a Mordor orc orc army but my shooting never amounts to much, how can I improve it?" followed by replies of "Ally in Watchers of Karna!" or "My Rohan Warriors low fight value is costing me games, what should I do?" "put wood elf bowmen with spears behind them!"

I think 9 times out of 10 when people are asking for this kind of advice they're not trying to create an all conquering tournament winning army, they're just trying to get the best out of the troops in their army list. Grimhammers often get tarred with this brush; they are a perfectly fairly costed, balanced and useful troop type but because Khazad Guards are 'better' (which of course they will be as they are in turn under-costed) people say Grimhammers are rubbish. Firstly, it's simply not true and secondly, it's somewhat irrelevant as there are no Khazad Guard in The Army of Thror list.

I think if someone asks, as the OP did, how to make the most of Gundabads as he wants to squeeze them into his "Hunter Orc" army then advising them to swap them for a more optimised troop from another list is hardly helpful.

As for the specific example, I think they're good. Yes, their Ancient Enemies rule is frustratingly pointless against most things thanks to feinting but, as Mertaal has said, could well be useful for your spearmen. However, lets assume you're not fighting dwarves of elves, in those cases the D6 could still be a real benefit against shooting. If I was running pure Azog's hunters I would certainly now try and get a front line of Gundabads to protect your squishy Hunter Orcs on the way in and then, just as the lines clash, drop the spears back behind the lines to give you some 3 attack Hunter orcs. Also, having a few Gundabads with shields gives you some tactical flexibility absent from your Hunter Orcs, a few Gundabads on the edge of your line shielding should protect your flanks quite nicely and stop the enemy surrounding you. Also, the models are AWESOME (and much better than the old plastic Uruks) which is reason enough to us ether in my book!

Hope that helps!

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Part of that is the reason I don't go in for clubs or serious games. I like Lord of the rings, I want to have the occasional game with the orcs, elves, dwarves, gondor and rohan models that I have and love. I don't care about winning, it's just a bit of fun. I just want to have a few hours in another world that I know well. I generally consider the more expanded range (esp in Harad and the East) as largely peripheral, and apocryphal. They're not the backbone of middle earth, and I don't care enough to find out about them, beyond having a few token infantry models.

So yeah, I want to play have games with the models I love, rather than buy models to win games.

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I for one still think gundabad blackshields are more useful than the gundabad orcs, simply due to the cave dweller rule and potential swarms around them.

As far as theme goes, I like making my own themes, using middle earth as the canvas, and my imagination as the paint. It's a very visual thing for me, mostly if the style fits between models then the paint job, and of course the competitive edge in a game play a part too.
These days I have so many models I also just want get to use them.

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I usually agree with everything you say, but no. This is just completely untrue.

Please explain in any way shape or form how they are balanced.

An average grim hammer cost 3 more than a base Warrior of Erebor (if you tell me I cant compare from the same list then I quit) and for a point less, you can have a warrior of erebor with a shield and spear support. Or for two less obviously either a shield and piercing strike from his given axe, or a spear.

The grim hammer weapon only has one use. Piercing strike. Its other special strike is more pointless than the Gundabads rule. Other than that for a point less you can get a model that can support with a spear, shield and has +1 defense all for less points.

The model is ABSOLUTELY irrelevant.

And this is one of the few models Id say that about. I cant even think of any other off the top of my head.

I seriously do want to know from your perspective why theyre balanced....

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BLACKHAWK 2010 2013 2015 DYNASTY

They cost 3 points more than a Warrior of Erebor, have exactly the same stats and get Throwing Weapons (which cost 2 points in SBG) and a special rule (which cost 1 point in SBG) included in their profile = completely fairly costed and balanced.



Unfortunately, your opinion that Bash and Ancient Enemies are pointless is entirely irrelevant (as well as being quite simply untrue). Subjective opinions about the usefulness of individual rules have no bearing on whether a model is fairly costed or not. I like Throwing Weapons and have had a lot of success with them, a lot of people don't like them, neither of those opinions have any bearing on whether a Grimhammer is fairly costed.

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I don't believe that throwing weapons (especially axes) are worth 2 points any more due to their nerfing in the AUJ rules. That hurt bows, but it bloody killed throwing weapons. Worse yet, it's entirely unrealistic in their case. Also, it should be noted that not all special rules cost a point. Citadel Guard's Bodyguard is "free." Osgiliath Veterans' rule is "free." Goblin Prowlers and Moria Blackshields are fairly costed without their respective special rules. Serpent Guards' and Riders' Poisoned Blades aren't factored into their cost. Then there are several others who pay fairly for theirs (RRG's Bodyguard) and many more who overpay for silly special rules (Blackroot Vale archers.) I think right when it boils down to it, GW aren't sure how to cost special rules in a manner that works all across the board.

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Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

Lol. Ok well if youre going to discuss this in a manner where because I use opinion you automatically say im wrong, Ill just drop trying to debate or discuss it with you...

Well then in my opinion, Grim Hammers are garbage compared to what else you can buy, and im guessing 85%+ of the SBG community would never use them if they had another option. And thats the only thing that really matters. Actual worthiness of fielding them not being good on paper. REAL wars on lost because something looks good on paper.

Shielding is alone an intangible that is worth far more than a bash or a throwing weapon. And spear support you use all game long.

Lol and Im not even going to begin to try to argue bash with you.....hah....

You win a fight. Choose not to strike. Then, usually, the model you want to double strike has more than one wound....thats the point...usually models with more than 1 wound, are strength 4 and above. THEN you compare the hammers weak strength 3 to try to tie the enemy, ON A FURTHER DICE ROLL AFTER YOU WON THE FIGHT.

..........yeah Dr. Grant. Bash is amazing.

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Staying on topic for the topic producer, they are already mentioned but yes the Gundabads of course have many uses.

-Shielding
-High front line defense to protect hunter orcs/AZOG and his squishy
-Spear support...err...I think pike actually so multiple supports
-They look awesome
-They provide variety to the army
-They are fairly cost worthy compared to a lot of new models being produced for ultra high costs

The main thing is to me, as a Hunter Orc advocate.....their whole army has defense 5 or lower other than Bolg maybe?? You pretty much have to charge. With these guys, youd do better off on some scenarios by holding an objective or something with a small amount of them while your hunters go elsewhere and cause havoc.

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BLACKHAWK 2010 2013 2015 DYNASTY

Whaaaa?! Bash is AMAZING! It's quickly becoming my favourite special strike. It is usually successful for me about 90% time. I only use it if I have a another model supporting/ in the fight so they can gain double strikes.

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Which models do you use it with against what types of troops?

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BLACKHAWK 2010 2013 2015 DYNASTY

Hmmm... question- if you successfully bash a mounted model/steed presumably you unhorse him? (or more appropriately, un-fell-beast him ). Does he take a thrown rider test?

I always assumed it would be most useful in a multiple combat against a hero that wasn't already trapped.

However, in the case of Grimhammers I do take LotBR's point that combined with strength 3 it's of very limited use. It's a great idea, but in practice I think of it as very situational.

Thing is, in my opinion ALL the special strikes should be situational. What I dislike about them in general is that they mostly fall in to either the "totally useless" camp or the "no brainer" camp.

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They certainly took a hit but I think they're still worth it if you have a shoot value of 4+ or better. If you take 4 Grimhammers then against most armies they only have to kill one model across the whole game to make their points back. Using good armies (particularly elves and Rohan) my Throwing Weapons always make their points back. That's not to mention the times that they vastly over-perform and kill an elite or wound a Hero.



That's a fair point but I think they're the exceptions rather than the rule, the system's not perfect but generally there's a rule that for a warrior each pip of stat and each special rule costs 1 point and for a Hero each one costs 5 points. It's also worth pointing out that the troops you mention are some of the 'post-2006' metal elites which are all famously undercosted (think Abrakhan Guard/Watchers of Karna etc.) which, from a cynical point of view, was often seen as a way to push sales rather than protect the integrity of the point system.




Let's try and keep this sensible; sarcasm and condescending posts are a near instant way to get threads locked, you asked me for my opinion and I gave it, if you don't agree fair enough but please don't resort to these kind of tedious remarks. Bash is very effective if used in the right way, the most obvious being Mertaal's example against cavalry. If my Grimhammer wins the fight against a mounted Royal Guard, I'd far rather take the 50/50 chance of dismounting him (and then the 1 in 6 chance of killing him through thrown rider) than the 1 in 6 chance of wounding him. Bash is brilliant against cavalry and against heroes (who are often only 1 strength higher than you. I won a fight against Gandalf the White on horse once, with defence 5, 3 wounds and 3 Fate (that he can re-roll) there was very little point in trying to wound him but I bashed him and knocked him straight off his horse.



I didn't say you were wrong, I said your subjective opinion (and mine!) about the worth of various special rules wasn't relevant to determining whether or not Grimhammers are fairly costed. Which it isn't.



Yes. I agree. But again, this doesn't mean that Grmihammers are overcosted or not balanced, it just means that many players don't see the worth in the war gear/rules they pay for.



This again is entirely subjective, I'd say over the course of a game Throwing weapons are worth far more than shielding, in addition you use Throwing Weapons all game long so I don't really see the logic there. But again, it doesn't matter, if you don't rate Throwing Weapons/Bash and you like shielding and spear support you're not going to like Grimhammers and you will like Warriors of Erebor. It doesn't affect the costing of either troop.

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Against cavalry sure, maybe if you work it correctly, and get past the fact youve probably been charged. If you play against a seasoned player or someone who uses cavalry a lot....lets say thermo...im sure hes gonna be more sensible than to let you get the best of his cavalry using bash. If the player plays it the right way, hes going to knock you to the ground and double strike your grim hammers. Yeah, sometimes he gets caught, but then again, if you manage to kill his rider after he charges the previous round and kills your hammer, youve both just lost the same amount of points. And hes eventually going to be more mobile and gain the momentum if hes a smart player. And thats what I base everything I do off of. Imaging Im playing an above average tournament worthy opponent.

You have your 1 Gandalf the White example, sure. Any good played I know whod use a wizard or a wraith (excuse me if this person can read this) wouldnt make the amateur mistake of sending him in to be hurt like that. Furthemore, youre still lucky A-you had the dice rolls B- he lost the Combat and C-He didnt have Glamdring

I can literally say in almost every battle Ive ever fought in that I had an important round or 2 3 4 5 that I used shielding and kept myself a position to help me win later.




I mean, if youre trying to say on paper, for the SBG, given a basic rule, basic perks etc usually each cost 1 up to their point total.....well sure....who can argue that.....nobody. But the combination of these rules and things for that amount of points in a unit that is not so strong, not so fast, not so defensive, and has a special rule that can be made up for in MANY other ways especially considering the piercing strike can be made up for with the lowest caliber dwarf of any army list.....well that to me just says what does this unit have to make it worth that much?

I mean, generally, its just a poorly designed model. Why put throwing weapons on them? Why have 6 defense when they are arguable the most highly armored basic foot troop in the game?? IDK......

I dont know what type of opponents you play, but youd need 6s to kill with a throwing weapon on most of the armies I play with.






I mostly covered this already. All I have to say is one of the strengths of the dwarves is tough combat troops, at a reasonable cost....just like isengard.

No, I dont like them, not because I dont like those rules....I dont like those rules, because I dont feel they are worth the points they cost period. Im not a huge lover of spear support....the biggest tournament I ever went to I didnt take 1 spear or pike or banner.

I frequently use hunter orcs....which dont have supports (aside from the topics Gundabads which I frankly cant afford to put together even 1 warband of these for what else I can buy....but thats another subject.)

Everyone has different styles.

I can play all cavalry, harad with soft d and many bows, I can use a bit of magic, I can play sturdy combat troops that are slow like morannons and dwarves, I can play wood elves, shoot and run away.

One thing I will not do, is simply accept units like the grim hammers. I feel that they are one of the most over-costed for what you can do.....

For a Grim Hammer Captain no perks, and one warband of grim hammers you can literally take THORIN OAKENSHIELD with Oakenshield and Orcrist, 6 warriors of Erebor with shield and axe, and six with spear supporting. And 3 of those, you can give a shield to as well.

Or dwalin, and you can equip them all with shields and spears and still have pts left over.

Or to put it in perspective against Cavalry, you Can take Erkenbrand on horse, with 10 Westfold Redshields. Then you can give 4 of them throwing spears.

You said you cant compare them, or you like not to, to other lists.....why? Thats the point of the game. You have to be weary of opponents and other armies. Thats why we play, other than to have LOTR fun.

Think about those lists...Thorin alone would ruin that warband.

And the cavalry? Explain what good player would let 5 movement dwarves beat them or bash them? They shoot until the dwarves dwindle and charge. Or even if in the midst of the game, they just have to go to combat.....theyre going to be able to charge....they have almost as many people...and then if they tie, they win on fight value......

I get what youre saying, and if your argument is on paper, they should be that many points, then ok......but I think theyre just a horrible unit. And thats why I started this conversation in the first place.

You said fairly costed....eh....I guess. I cant really disagree though Id like to...balanced? They are that many points for a regular troop type in other armies you can find for 3-4 less with a couple of perks that wont change a game. As for the last thing you said...useful.....I fail to see how. They hinder to an army that otherwise could use an elite troop. I believe thats what they were supposed to be but theyre not.

They should be in my opinion 13 pts and:
Fight: 4 Strength: 4 Defense: 7 the rest the same and then only the bash rule. That profile would make them useful. How is a hammer that size not strength 4? Their fight value sucks, plus their weapon is two handed.....theyre losing ties to orcs man.........unless they are supported....but then why are we gonna build a unit around trying to support a weak high cost model....IDK I just dont get what theyre doing with this model.

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BLACKHAWK 2010 2013 2015 DYNASTY

You could use that same argument against ANY special strike. None of them help you win combats. They only apply if you win, so really that says nothing specific against Bash.

In any case, if you've never managed to get the charge in on a cavalry model then you're very unlucky with your priority rolls and/or don't know what heroic moves are for.



No offence, but this reads like most of the games you've played are in your head. In real games non-ideal situations happen all the time, because you're managing various different threat vectors and various different objectives which don't include "make sure Gandalf never gets charged like a NOOB".



Dr Grant plays in most of the GBHL tournaments and ranked third last year. I men this in a friendly way, but it's probably a good idea to drop the condescension. You may not mean to, but your posts in this thread come over a bit passive aggressive.

You'll always be able to find a more "optimal" troop type for a given situation. Tactics is about finding the best use for the tool you have, and if you don't like that particular tool, then fine, don't use it. Some people like a belt sander better than a rotary sander. I'm sure power tool nerds could have loads of tedious pi$$ing contests over which was better, but frankly, application and style speak far more than raw specs. My girlfriend's PC has far more processing power and was far cheaper than my Mac, but I still prefer my slower and more expensive Mac, because it suits my way of doing things (not having to fix the thing every 5 seconds ) better.

I think this argument is more or less the same. I don't want to take Eerebor warriors with Khazad Guard, so I'll take Grimhammers like I'm supposed to.
I REALLY don't want to take Khazad Guard backed up with Wood Elf Spears, because I think that it's pure unadulterated cheese (however many people try to sell it as "battle of the five armies).
So I don't care that Grimhammers aren't "optimal", I'm going to take them if I can see a use for them in my army, regardless of whether there's some other troop that represents better value elsewhere in the sourcebooks. It's then a question of whether you want some horrible mismatch of bizarre troops which would never be seen together in Middle Earth.

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I'll keep mine short

Warriors of Erebor w/ hammers bashing whatever comes into contact with their hammers. Thranduil, royal guard, fountain court you name it.

It's all about the play style, you ask any of my opponents and they'll say they fear my bashing dwarves.

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I'll keep mine kinda short.
Gundabad orcs are heavy armour to protect the hunter orcs and importantly, the squishy hunter orc heroes plus azog. You pay to keep azog alive

Bash is actually a great rule. But you don't take an army of them. To compare bash to shielding is silly. One needs a variety of tools on one's swiss army knife.

Stick a mounted model on its bum means a heroic next turn to stop him being trapped for another turn or make a hero tremble when in a multiple combat with a hammer and other models. Even if he doesn't die he might be on his bum so all might goes to making sure he wins this turn.

Of course youll win priority eventually. But a good opponent will limit it to the point where you should be beaten up enough for them to not be badly hurt by your efforts. They can counter heroics as well. Yeah, maybe not work out, but sometimes do, and then youre charged two turns in a row with models that cost as much as their cavalry.

As for special strikes....you risk EVERYTHING with a bash. You can win the fight and still not use it.

If you win with most of the rest you can probably still attack. Theyre all a risk, and bash has a weak payoff except in specific small areas which is all that you guys have brought up so far.




Thanks for talking about condescension in one part of the post, then telling me Im imagining games in my head in another......

Gandalf can get charged. But again a good player (which by the way to further the point....dont you have an assortment of great players in the GBHL? Its probably very tough.....so why not think like this yes IN YOUR HEAD before the games) should have plenty of support for him with other troops, banners, spears, more cavalry counter charging.

Its gonna happen, but the difference between an average player and a great player is what happens once it does happen. I played a good player at my last tournament and he not only kept Gandalf protected but because of the scenario I couldnt waste troops chasing him on horseback. I need objectives. So you really really mean to tell me a solid player is gonna let some movement 5 grim hammers chase him down if the situation isnt optimal? Sounds like a mistake to me. Or at the least, a gambit.




To get it out of the way, the only condescension was about the bash rule. I think its pure waste. It might make a wave a few times a game but not worth it to take at least six models worth 78 pts. Cause if you take less theyll probably die without accomplishing much. Id say like maybe a Dwalin or someone (can he use bash??) would use it successfully and well, but his model and others who can use it at that level are good enough.....and on Dr Grants way to that placement....how much did he use bash? How many pivotal moments was it involved...Im not being rude...I want to know. Did it at any moments? Im trying to learn.


anyway on to the rest of this quote....

I understand this part completely of course. Most people should I think.

Fact of the matter is, all im trying to say though isnt that you should take Khazads or Durins Folk with Elves. Im just saying I think the complete wrapped up package presented as that models stat line is not worth it.

Id much rather take another warband of warriors of Erebor to fit the theme. Im sure a lot of people would agree with me. Do you honestly believe in your mind youd take the warbands I listed earlier and choose the Grim Hammer one over either the Thorin or Dwalin one? Maybe to a friendly game I guess. Maybe for fluff. But if youre being realistic I dont see how thats a good choice with already expensive heros in the Thrors army list.

And no, Id never take Thorin and Dwalin with like Dain and vault wardens to a tournament....I wouldnt do it either man! Thats not what im saying at all. The whole point is Im saying their complete package is just not fitting with the army, a point sink, and should be different.

Seems to me you guys are arguing a lot for the 'its all opinion' and 'they can be useful' side of things whereas im saying sure, but realistically, the unit is just not good overall if I had a choice, which we all do.







Hahah thank you. So do you model your warriors with hammers? Because if so, THAT, is what Im talking about. Outstanding idea! And I would love to try this myself. So Mertall and Dr Grant this is a perfect example of what im going for^ You have a very useful unit whos less than 10 pts and can bash with no extra rules or pt costs.

Id love to play you Southern....not saying Id win....but I think it would be fun to face an army like that and see how it does. Sounds like fun.

This is a totally different story than grim hammers.



IDK maybe im just going about this from the idea where first off, I Never use all mounted, I rarely use half or a 1/3 mounted. Maybe 1 warband. And my heros, if mounted, id keep away from the hammers. I usually use full armies of foot troops sometimes with monsters. Id deploy keeping my horses away from them as far as possible. Id shoot at them with crossbows, or use troops like hunter orcs, goblins, orcs, various guys who are there to die to tie them up and overrun them.

Sure, theres going to be a time when I have to throw a horse or hero in MAYBE but I just never see it as necessary. If someone is so damn good that they can flank and trap me and my cavalry and other units that shouldnt be bashed with movement 5 hammers, then Im an idiot and deserve to lose to be honest.

By the way guys, I did buy a set of grim hammers, painted them, saw their stats, and sold them......but now, after this topic....this big debate....I sincerely want to make a Dwarf army (gonna have to be Durin I have no warriors of Erebor....well or I can proxy) and give them hammers and test out bashing to see how effective it actually is.....I mean....Im at a loss for words seeing how good you guys think it is.

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BLACKHAWK 2010 2013 2015 DYNASTY

Am I missing something here? Grimhammers are already F4? How is that rubbish and how do they lose ties to Orcs?
Also good troops for whatever reason don't seem to get S4 when they should (maybe Grimhammer's should, but then there's probably several other examples aswell), only Helmingas, Sons and Khazads that I can think of.

Also can I just say (to no-one in particular) if we're discussing balancing, Grim Hammers are undercosted in my opinion.
Okay so basic 3,3,3,3 statline. 5 points. -1 for Move 5 = 4 points. +3 (Def) +1 (Special Rule) +1 (Courage) +1 (Fight Value) +2 (Throwing Weapon) = 12 points.

On Topic:
I think a lot of people's stumbling block with the Gundabads is that they want them, but can't justify spending the money (me included), then we have a sour grapes situation and try to justify not spending money by looking at bad points.
However, as has been said above by multiple people, they have a multitude of uses due to being in a very limited list troops wise. Not least of which is forming a front wall of shield and spear guys, which then moves back and supports, making use of the Ancient Enemies rule. (I know its already been said, just reiterating because I think its a very useful application for them.)

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