The One Ring :: View topic - Catapult troll W.I.P

Isilduhrr wrote:

J.R what's wrong with the concept? There aren't enough women represented in the game.
I really like the idea. I never would have thought of using Galadriel, and I feel the body is too small for the head and arms, but I'll reserve judgement till it's finished.

I don't know J.R. reasons, but I don't like too much the concept. I loved the whole idea of Eowen (Dernhelm) being a very rare piece of work. Regardless of how true it is that women CAN fight and learn how to fight, the truth is that up until VERY recently, women were not allowed to fight. Just because women have more rights today doesn't change history nor should it change fantasy based loosely on concepts of that history. In that era , society actually depended upon a woman figure holding up the home, watching the kids, cooking cleaning, and keeping things in order while the men went to work, or went hunting or occasional to war. Only in modern society can we work out the logistics of having both parents working and leave the house work to be equally tackled (though much is now modern and thus faster/easier. So I think in any Middle Earth army, women should be very scarce. This is without adding the disgusting things that armies of those times would do with a woman... un educated borderline barbarian brained men would probably not take order from a woman and would more than she would be used for other business and then left dead in the wake of a marching force.

And like J.R. I would say you did a great job putting it together. You are free to do what you want of course and I am sure it will look great.

Author:	Toxic [ Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Catapult troll W.I.P
So this is what I came up with for my Female BN, I'll be using her as a marshal and army leader in small point games. Still have some green stuff work to do. I used Galadirel for the body and parts from the Morgul Knights kit for the arms, crown/helmet and shield, with some green stuff of course .

Author:	J.R. [ Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Although I don't like the concept, I think you executed it very, very well!

Author:	Toxic [ Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
J.R. wrote: Although I don't like the concept, I think you executed it very, very well! Thanks!

Author:	KANE [ Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Looks very cool, and good idea with using galadriel body.

Author:	Gene Parmesan [ Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Turned out quite well.

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Catapult troll W.I.P http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=30118	Page 1 of 3

Author:	Alatar of Rhun [ Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Very cool will make an interesting center piece in a warband

Author:	GothmogtheWerewolf [ Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
I used that Galadriel to make Queen Beruthiel, both foot and mounted, for the mounted, I still have some parts left which could make something quite similar. Yours looks brilliant

Author:	Crucium Giger [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Very well done, she should fit in nicely along side the stock Black Numenoreans.

Author:	Gene Parmesan [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
How many spare heads and arms came with the morgul knights? You've inspired me to try make something new.

Author:	Toxic [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Thanks all for the positive feedback. Gene Parmesan wrote: How many spare heads and arms came with the morgul knights? You've inspired me to try make something new. Eh... None I'm afraid. If I want to use the knight with half his head missing I'll have to get out the greenstuff and plasticard, Not a problem though. There are enough arms for 6 knights and the 3 command options, no extra shields so more plasticard...

Author:	Oldman Willow [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Interesting idea. Cool conversion.

Author:	Gene Parmesan [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Toxic wrote: Thanks all for the positive feedback. Gene Parmesan wrote: How many spare heads and arms came with the morgul knights? You've inspired me to try make something new. Eh... None I'm afraid. If I want to use the knight with half his head missing I'll have to get out the greenstuff and plasticard, Not a problem though. There are enough arms for 6 knights and the 3 command options, no extra shields so more plasticard... Dang, there goes a good idea.

Author:	JamesR [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
I do feel like the head/arms are a little too big, but the model looks nice

Author:	Isilduhrr [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
J.R what's wrong with the concept? There aren't enough women represented in the game. I really like the idea. I never would have thought of using Galadriel, and I feel the body is too small for the head and arms, but I'll reserve judgement till it's finished.

Author:	rumtap [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
I think it's an awesome concept and i look forward to seeing the finished model. Despite assertions that women had little to do with military matters there is an abundance of strong historical women to draw inspiration from such as Boudicca and Ethelfleda. Eowyn herself was described as a shieldmaiden indicating she was based on the Scandinavian shieldmaidens of history. On that note, check out the TV show Vikings. I also don’t think one female black numorean will change the male dominated military society that others say should exist. Please note, I'm not interested in hijacking this thread and turning it into a debate on the use of women in SBG. I'm simply showing my support for Toxic's work.

Author:	Sithious [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
I am not saying there were never any women in war. Tolkien was in one of the most horror filled wars ever, Mustard gas and the like. Also Many civ populated cities were attacked in the World wars, much rape and I am sure many woman fought valiantly regardless of training to what ever end. For the most part, Women were kept out of history books, wars, and such for a long time... the few that rose above this are few and far between compared to how many men fought in wars through the ages. A hero among women fighters is even more rare. So in Tolkiens ME, coming from that same very male saturated belief system, women were supposed to be kept from battle. For the reasons I stated earlier, they were probably busy, both parents cant leave the home, farm, kids, and everything to tramp off to war, someone has to be strong and defend the home. I don't think it is a womans job, just that in history it in fact was the womans job. I think it was very nice that Tolkien showed a woman that was sick of that. Sick of letting the men go off to die while they waited to see if they would return or if they would be next to die (or a worse fate, so live in servitude). And Yes, Eowyn was trained, was a shield maiden who as a woman was supposed to be able to defend the kingdom if all the men are killed or if the enemy slips past. But men don't want women to see the horror of war either, and they also do not want to lose moral by seeing women butchered and raped by the enemy. So keeping woem off those ancient battle fields made more sense then in todays world where I am all for it, and most men and women don't know if they are men or women anymore. it is a different time. So I am just saying, IMO, from my experience and my reading of Tolkiens works, I find it hard to have multiple strong fighting women. IN PJ's films we have, Lake town, Arwen, Eowyn, Tauriel, Galadriel, and many wood elves... It is like all women in ME are fighters now. And this I think takes away from how special it was that one woman, Eowyn, Chose to rise above the double standard and choose to go to war and also be a hero in that battle. IN PJ's version she is just a girl that got lucky and there are many actual great women fighters that make Eowyn look like a weakling. So again. I only chimed in because I agreed that the concept didn't fit my Tolkien view point and gave my reasons, regardless of if you believe those reasons, I believe them and that is why my opinion is what it is. I think in Fantasy where I can name probably 50 awesome female fighters, I can definitely see reason for someone to make one. I also love conversions and think it is a great one. If it wasn't Middle Earth I would be 110% behind the whole thing. phew.... It would for sure be easier to say, Great job, man, love the idea and concept, good luck, can't wait to see it. and delete my other posts.

Author:	Gene Parmesan [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Whoa dude, lets not get carried away here. He's produced an excellent model. Also what do we know of the black numenorian social structure? There is a problem with replicating conditions of society, labour and warfare like for like from our world into a fantasy world. Let's not forget that there are talking trees in Tolkien for example, and much that is anachronistic. Not to mention the depressingly crude sexualized depiction of female warriors in fantasy modelling in general( one glance at cmon will illustrate this). I find it puzzling that you are being so staunch in your defence when it comes to females. Also female does not equal woman, but that's a whole other debate. So to get back on track well done on the conversion.

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Author:	Sithious [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Isilduhrr wrote: J.R what's wrong with the concept? There aren't enough women represented in the game. I really like the idea. I never would have thought of using Galadriel, and I feel the body is too small for the head and arms, but I'll reserve judgement till it's finished. I don't know J.R. reasons, but I don't like too much the concept. I loved the whole idea of Eowen (Dernhelm) being a very rare piece of work. Regardless of how true it is that women CAN fight and learn how to fight, the truth is that up until VERY recently, women were not allowed to fight. Just because women have more rights today doesn't change history nor should it change fantasy based loosely on concepts of that history. In that era , society actually depended upon a woman figure holding up the home, watching the kids, cooking cleaning, and keeping things in order while the men went to work, or went hunting or occasional to war. Only in modern society can we work out the logistics of having both parents working and leave the house work to be equally tackled (though much is now modern and thus faster/easier. So I think in any Middle Earth army, women should be very scarce. This is without adding the disgusting things that armies of those times would do with a woman... un educated borderline barbarian brained men would probably not take order from a woman and would more than she would be used for other business and then left dead in the wake of a marching force. And like J.R. I would say you did a great job putting it together. You are free to do what you want of course and I am sure it will look great.

Author:	Toxic [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
JamesR wrote: I do feel like the head/arms are a little too big, but the model looks nice Yep, but I just see it as a huge crown/helmet. I will be making another version eventually but until then she will fit in nicely.

Author:	Toxic [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Female Black Numenorean W.I.P
Sithious wrote: Isilduhrr wrote: J.R what's wrong with the concept? There aren't enough women represented in the game. I really like the idea. I never would have thought of using Galadriel, and I feel the body is too small for the head and arms, but I'll reserve judgement till it's finished. I don't know J.R. reasons, but I don't like too much the concept. I loved the whole idea of Eowen (Dernhelm) being a very rare piece of work. Regardless of how true it is that women CAN fight and learn how to fight, the truth is that up until VERY recently, women were not allowed to fight. Just because women have more rights today doesn't change history nor should it change fantasy based loosely on concepts of that history. In that era , society actually depended upon a woman figure holding up the home, watching the kids, cooking cleaning, and keeping things in order while the men went to work, or went hunting or occasional to war. Only in modern society can we work out the logistics of having both parents working and leave the house work to be equally tackled (though much is now modern and thus faster/easier. So I think in any Middle Earth army, women should be very scarce. This is without adding the disgusting things that armies of those times would do with a woman... un educated borderline barbarian brained men would probably not take order from a woman and would more than she would be used for other business and then left dead in the wake of a marching force. And like J.R. I would say you did a great job putting it together. You are free to do what you want of course and I am sure it will look great. Keep in mind that she's from Mordor, I'm pretty sure if female black numenoreans existed (and it's quite possible) they wouldn't be cooking and cleaning like the rest of the women folk in ME.