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Cost of legendary formations
http://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=14707		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Cosworth [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Cost of legendary formations
At another site there's a discussion going on concerning the cost of legendary formations. Each legendary formations follows the price formula "X + Y per company".
The question is: What does the first legendary formation cost?

X ?
X+Y ? (supported by examples on page 16+17)

Does anyone here have some hard evidence as to which is correct?

(Note: in army builder AB3.1 I have opted for the cost = X for the first company)
Author:  Ogrob [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I spontanteously took it to mean that the first company was already paid for.

Comparing Osgiliath Veterans to Lamedon Clansmen, since Angbor and Cirion have the same stats, but they work differently, I came to the same conclusion.

A company of Lamedon Clansmen can upgrade one model to be Angbor, becoming Legendary in the process, for a total cost of 115 for Angbor's company.

The first cost of Osgiliath Veterans is 120, five points more, but the Veterans themselves cost more then the Clansmen. My impression is that Cirion is equal to the 75 point Angbor.

Therefor, I think the example is wrong, but I couldn't at a quick glance find anything in the rules about purchasing Legendary formations.
Author:  Cosworth [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Cirion comes with a Banner as well. Angbor+banner & 1 company would then be 140 pts. So this example actually supports the X+Y pricing theory as there is no good reason for Cirion to be 20-25 pts. cheaper than Angbor (one less courage but with a nice special rule).
Don't get me wrong - I'm rooting for the X pricing rather than X+Y
Author:  Cosworth [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Here's an example pointing towards "1st company is included in X":

Erkenbrand's riders features Erkenbrand+banner for 115 i.e. he is valued at 80 pts if you have to pay separately for the company, 40 if you don't.

As an epic hero he costs 75, gains an epic action, a new special rule and can move around to other formations. All of this for 5 points LESS. Alternatively if the 1st company is included you pay 35 pts more for the Epic version.

For 5 pts less it's a no brainer. for 35 pts. more I'd stop to think about it.
Author:  Cosworth [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Rivendell guard vs High elf cohort is even more extreme. Erestor is here valued at 90 pts for exactly the same stats and abilities as a 50 pt high elf captain. Alternatively he is valued at 35 pts if the first company is included in the cost.
Now ask yourself is WotR a game that would want you to field named heroes over generic captains? So which pricing formula is more likely to be right?

And now I'll stop arguing with myself :-)
Author:  Ogrob [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
I miscalculated the price for Angbor, it should be 105, not 115, so Cirion with banner is 15 points more expensive, not 5. (It was early in the morning)

Taking into account pricing of special rules, I think this stil indicated that the first company is included.
Author:  Angrok [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Until an official Errata/FAQ comes out it is best to go with the X+Y theory since that is what you see in the book's examples. As it stands right now the X+Y formula is going to mean some legendary formations (Ugluk's Raiders and Vrasku's Talons) are just not worth their points while others are priced about right (Sharku's Hunters). Meanwhile, the X formula is going to result in some legendary formations being very good for their points (ie overpowered) while making most of the rest viable. :roll:

The end result will be the same: everyone takes the good point value formations. However, the X formula will then allow players to spend some additional points and gives greater incentive for fielding these legendary formations while the X+Y makes it more of a trade off.
Author:  Ogrob [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
With the above examples, I believe it's X alone for the first company. It makes no sense that Erkenbrand would cost 35 points more in a less useful form.

I'll do some more reading and see if I can figure it out.
Author:  gaarew [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
I read it as, the Command company costs the listed price, say 120, in the case of the Osgiliath Veterans, then each additional company costs 35 points.

I don't really understand how it can be read any other way.


In all cases, the first cost is for the Command company, with the options listed, then the second cost is for easch additional company.


Also, not all the examples in the book are correct. A Berserker company is 110 points in the Isengard list, yet only 75 on the roster on page 16...
Author:  Corsair [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
gaarew wrote:
Also, not all the examples in the book are correct. A Berserker company is 110 points in the Isengard list, yet only 75 on the roster on page 16...


hmmm. I hate these 'typos'. They generally reduce the :( quality of the book.
Author:  Ogrob [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Found something:

Quote:
the first company purchased is automatically the command company and has X and a Banner Bearer included in the base cost


Now the base cost really has to be the first number, no? The only thing speaking against it is a battle report played, seemingly, before the army lists were finished.
Author:  Shortshanks [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
In the 'Collecting Armies' part of the GW site a Rivendell Guard formation of 4 companies was listed at 385 points. This means you have to pay both the first and second price for the command company. That's the way I personally thought it was from the start and unfortunately it looks like it is. I think the first price is to reflect not only added Heroes but also any special abilities or rules that formation will benefit from.
Author:  gaarew [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
If that was the case, which I don't think it is, then it should be worded - X points per company plus Y, rather than Y + X points per company.
Author:  Shortshanks [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
The Legendary formations listed on pages 16-17 in the WotR book confirms this as well points-wise.
Author:  gaarew [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
And as stated, they also cost Berserkers at 75 rather than 110 points, so, I don't know how much you should use them as an example.
Author:  Ogrob [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
All indicators point that way, but it doesn't flat out say in the rules.

I read it the other way, but now I think that it will be X+Y for the first company once we get it FAQed.
Author:  Shortshanks [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
True on the Berserkers but I really think that's a typo. Just to be sure for myself I added up the points for formations in the rulebook, the latest WD and the website. They all pan out to the two prices for the command company. The only discrepency was the price for Sharku's 2 companies in the WD magazine which was too much. If you look at the actual photo though it shows 6 companies which would make the price correct. In the 7 or so examples I looked at they all pan out. I agree though that it could have been explained more clearly in the army section.
Author:  gaarew [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
I just checked the WD Isengard list and Rohan list, and for Sharku and Vrasku and Erkenbrand's companies, it is indeed the cost of the companies PLUS the first listed value.


Which, if correct, is nothing short of confusing.

Rather than saying 120 + 25 per company, it should be 145 + 25 per additional company.
Author:  Erunion [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't know if anyone here also plays Apocalypse for 40K, but this is how they do points for the datasheets for that game. You are paying X for the special rules/abilities/upgrades that you get with the formation and then Y for each unit in the formation.

When building my lists, I plan on paying X+Y* (number of companies).
Author:  Hellfury [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Erunion wrote:
I don't know if anyone here also plays Apocalypse for 40K, but this is how they do points for the datasheets for that game. You are paying X for the special rules/abilities/upgrades that you get with the formation and then Y for each unit in the formation.


Agreed. 8)

This is how I read it as well.
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