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How do you seperate formations after a fight?
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Author:  cookluke5150 [ Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:59 am ]
Post subject:  How do you seperate formations after a fight?
There is a charge phase after every fight? The rules dont explain this. Also what if I can reach a formation in my move phase, is there no charge phase or do the formations maintain a gap till charge phase? Thanks for the help
Author:  ScarpeIron [ Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
There is a charge phase after every fight?
...No. One Charges into an opposing formation if they make the necessary roll that allows them to cover the distance to that opposing formation. EXCEPTION:: Cavalry formations that roll a 6, and if victorious, can "immediately charge and fight again (pg50 grey box). All formations Charge that are going to in the Charge phase then you move onto the Fight Phase. Once complete, wash and repeat from the top with Priority.


Also what if I can reach a formation in my move phase, is there no charge phase or do the formations maintain a gap till charge phase?
....They maintain a gap till all movement is completed in the movement phase (then the Shooting Phase starts, then the Charge Phase). Even if you are hairs-width away you can still stall by rolling a "1," course if you have a hero in the formation you can use the Might to raise it.

- :puppy:
Author:  BlackMist [ Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Heroic Combat also opens a 2nd Fight Phase for the given formations if you meet all the requirements for it. Otherwise it's like ScarpeIron said.
Author:  Morgoth's Dad [ Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
I don't think his question has been answered. I think he means do they still charge again even when in base to base combat? The answer is no, the charge phase only applies to those formations that can charge, formations in base to base contact and fighting skip the charge phase.
Author:  Slythar [ Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Morgoth's Dad wrote:
formations in base to base contact and fighting skip the charge phase.


No. Formations cannot be in base to base contact unless they have been charged or have charged successfully. A 1" gap must be maintained otherwise including Defensible Terrain.
(pg. 26 - Formations in Contact)
(pg. 52 - Occupying a Terrain Feature #2)
(pg.43 - Move Spearhead)
(pg. 50 - Determine Victor "... different formations never end a turn in base contact.)
Author:  Morgoth's Dad [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Slythar wrote:
Morgoth's Dad wrote:
formations in base to base contact and fighting skip the charge phase.


No. Formations cannot be in base to base contact unless they have been charged or have charged successfully. A 1" gap must be maintained otherwise including Defensible Terrain.
(pg. 26 - Formations in Contact)
(pg. 52 - Occupying a Terrain Feature #2)
(pg.43 - Move Spearhead)
(pg. 50 - Determine Victor "... different formations never end a turn in base contact.)


So what happens on the next turn after they charged? The way I read it they remain in base to base contact and fight it out unless they move away, skipping the charge phase and playing the fight phase each turn. It makes no sense if they charge every turn into the same combat. They don't charge, fight, move back and recharge. How can a formation charge again when it is already engaged in a melee?

p.26 says that 'different formations are not allowed to touch unless they are engaged in a fight' It doesn't say they have to have charged that turn.

p.50 says 'separate the formations slightly to show the fight has been resolved' That's just a visual aid for the players, it doesn't mean they charge again next turn. It doesn't say anywhere in the rules this is a 1" gap between formations maintained after fighting so that the formation can charge again.

Looking at it again I think you might have misread my post, i meant formations charge and then every consecutive turn after the charge turn they remain in base to base contact and fight until they move away, but you're right the initial contact must come as a result of a charge. It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that formations have to charge every single turn at the same enemy formation before the fight phase.
Author:  BlackMist [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Morgoth's Dad wrote:
The answer is no, the charge phase only applies to those formations that can charge, formations in base to base contact and fighting skip the charge phase.

Morgoth's Dad wrote:
So what happens on the next turn after they charged? The way I read it they remain in base to base contact and fight it out unless they move away, skipping the charge phase and playing the fight phase each turn. It makes no sense if they charge every turn into the same combat. They don't charge, fight, move back and recharge. How can a formation charge again when it is already engaged in a melee?

What are you reading? The game divides into phases in this order:
1. Piority
2. Move
3. Shoot
4. Charge
5. Combat

After combat formations are separated, NOBODY is in combat after the combat phase has been completed, this is NOT Warhammer. Charge phase applies to everybody because nobody is in combat before charge phase starts. If you want to fight the same enemy 2nd turn in a row then you have to charge them or they have to charge you. In fact the page 50 sentence that you mentioned states that they separate - separate = not in base contact = not in combat. Pretty simple.
Author:  Morgoth's Dad [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Of course they are still in combat after the combat phase, are you joking? In a battle after the initial charge formations are locked in a melee. Why would they separate and charge again? It's nonsense i'm afraid. It says nowhere in the rules that formations move apart at least 1" after the combat phase in order to charge at each other again the next turn. If you can find somewhere that it does then fair enough. It does say that the formations separate but that is only so the players can see they have resolved the combat phase, next turn as far as I understand it they continue the melee which means they do not charge again they enter the combat phase. That's the way it reads. If they intended it to mean they separate by 1" ready for a new charge next phase then it needs to be far more explicit In that section on page 50, Determine Victor, it isn't obvious what the outcome is at all.

As for quoting the order of turn at me, so what? Not everybody does everything every turn, not everyone shoots or moves every turn, so why assume that a charge is always a part of the order for formations already in combat? Pretty simple it seems to me that you do not have to charge every single turn, that is just senseless. Once in melee formations can only move away, be pushed back or destroyed as far as I can see.

So essentially you think that formations charge, fight, separate, charge again, fight, separate, charge again...? Really? It which battles historically did that ever happen? Once in melee formations fight until one side forces the other back or destroys them. I suppose if we treat the combat phase as an short clash of melee from which the two sides fall back to charge again then it makes sense.

I think the rules aren't clear enough. I admit that charging every turn into combat is more interesting than simply locking swords for the next several turns, but as i've already said it isn't clear anywhere that this is what is intended to happen. The rules are ambiguous at best, poorly written at worst. It needs to be explicit that formations move 1" apart ready to charge or be charge in the next turn. Can anyone find anything that comes anywhere close to saying that?

By the way, I don't play Warhammer. :wink:

page 44 'A Note On Charging and the Spirit of the Game' is interesting, but again inconclusive.

p.s. Your blog is excellent Blackmist. 8)
Author:  Xelee [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Morgoth's Dad wrote:
Of course they are still in combat after the combat phase, are you joking? In a battle after the initial charge formations are locked in a melee. Why would they separate and charge again? It's nonsense i'm afraid. It says nowhere in the rules that formations move apart at least 1" after the combat phase in order to charge at each other again the next turn.

He is not joking.

I suggest you read the rules on the fight phase again! :)
Author:  Morgoth's Dad [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Xelee wrote:
Morgoth's Dad wrote:
Of course they are still in combat after the combat phase, are you joking? In a battle after the initial charge formations are locked in a melee. Why would they separate and charge again? It's nonsense i'm afraid. It says nowhere in the rules that formations move apart at least 1" after the combat phase in order to charge at each other again the next turn.

He is not joking.

I suggest you read the rules on the fight phase again! :)


...and I suggest that they are very ambiguous.

I've read them several times and they do not say anywhere that armies must separate by 1" in order to re-charge the next turn. They do say they separate but only for players to differentiate between formations that have fought and those that have not.

Since you seem fairly sure of yourself can you give me a quote that without ambiguity states that formations separate and charge again every turn?

To be honest i'm playing devils advocate a little here, since I can see that the rules probably do intend formations to charge every turn, but since both you and Blackmist seem to think it's obvious and I can't read properly i'm being awkward on this one. :)

Also, there are two threads on the front page, or there were, about this subject, so it isn't as obvious as it seems.
Author:  Xelee [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Hi Morgoth's Dad,

They are fairly straightforward (in the main, I misplaced one sentence when I read them), and the best way is to just read the entire section on the phase through again - preferably with some models in front of you - and get it step by step, to make you have the full flow right.

If you are familiar with other rules systems, then you may or may not have noticed some usual pieces are missing from the charge and shoot sections, since WOTR is a bit of an oddity in terms of sequencing. FOW and DBA are the the only other systems I have played where close-combat does not carry over between turns.
Author:  Morgoth's Dad [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Xelee wrote:
Hi Morgoth's Dad,

They are fairly straightforward (in the main, I misplaced one sentence when I read them), and the best way is to just read the entire section on the phase through again - preferably with some models in front of you - and get it step by step, to make you have the full flow right.

If you are familiar with other rules systems, then you may or may not have noticed some usual pieces are missing from the charge and shoot sections, since WOTR is a bit of an oddity in terms of sequencing. FOW and DBA are the the only other systems I have played where close-combat does not carry over between turns.



Thanks Xelee. I'm fighting a battle on Thursday and although my friend and I have not charged every turn previously we will do so on Thursday and see how it goes. As i've already said, it does seem to make for more variable outcomes (which is good). I intend to take stills and write a battle report so i'll let you all know how it goes.

Btw love this forum. Are there any other good WoTR forums anyone can recommend?
Author:  Xelee [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you seperate formations after a fight?
Good! I'd love to see more proper battle-reports, with pics, here.

The other main forums would be: Warseer: http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=132 and Last Alliance: http://www.terrainguild.com/thelastalliance/index.php

Cheers
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