Im not 100% sure if this is in the right forum,please correct me if im wrong.


Anyway,Has anyone got the July 2007 White Dwarf and if so,what do you think of the Master Empires bit.I love it,but i dont like the rules for it.

I have developed new rules for it which i find much more intresting.I will post them later on once i have made some drawings to illustrate the point.
But i can attempt to now,and feel free to rip my idea to shreds because thats how ideas get better.

Firstly you need a hexagonal table with each side 1ft long,why will be explained later on.Also you will need removable scenery like a castle,City,Farms,and trees and things like that(for the latest WD readers,all the scenery shown but in proportion to the miniatures.

Next you divide your forces into Troops,Battalions and Regiments.You can paint each Troop with a seperate colour scheme.And maybe put a battalion logo on them.But Troops have to be put in Battalions before the battle starts

Troops=10 miniatures (Max) = 100pt max
Battalions=2-3 Troops (20-30 miniatures & 300p max)
Regiments 2-4 battalions (40-120 miniatures & 1500pt max)

Troops move 2 hexagons per turn
Battalions move 1.5 per turn ( the .5 means every 2 turns they can move an extra 1,example Turn 1 = move 1 hex- Turn 2 = move 2 hexes)
Regiments move 1 per turn

Troops = +3 comradery
Battalion= +2 comradery
+1 courage
Regiment= +1 comradery
+3 courage

Comradery , as each person in a troop for example gets killed,the strength level goes up by 1 until the max is reached,in a troop its 3, also the comradery level goes up by 1 every 2 battles. Its a bit the those Elven Twins that when 1 dies the ther one has his stats boosted.Anyway , i have to go out now so ill post the rest of the rules when i get back.

Any comments welcome

TheElvenLord

Now, the markers you get are painted with a troops colours/logo.You move these around.Now when someone wants to takover that tile.Their army is changed into miniatures.Your army changed into miniatures.You then get out this 1ft side haxagon table,place the scenery so the table looks as close to the hexagon and you play a small battle with the stats shown in my last post.The winner gets the Tile.All loses in that battle are recorded and next time there is a battle the loses from previous battles are taken into account.You can buy back your loses at you towns and cities but they cant move until the troop it was lost from joins him on that tile.But if the Enemy attack the town where a soldier is waiting,it can join the battle by itself along with anyone else who is garrisoned there.

You can make it even more realistic , when there is a battle,the soldiers are placed where they came from.So lets say the attackers come from the Top Right hand side of the hexagon.And there are mountains there. When the battle is played the soldiers are placed on the mountains.

Only 1 troop can be in one hexagon at a time.Unless there are 3 and the battalion flag is placed there instead.This is the same rules with regiments.

The winner is -The last man (or woman) standing
-The Man(or woman) with the biggest amount of -army,empire and economy


Well i hope you like this but again feel free to rip my ideas to shreds.Thats the only way for it to get better.Any comments also welcome.Suggestions aswell.

Thanks

TheElvenLord

*moved*

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Okay,sorry,i know to put it in this forum next time.
Sorry again and thank you

TheElvenLord

Right well ill comment first.

I have also bought the White Dwarf and the Mighty Empire set, but i dont play warhammer. Why? - you say. Well it is very useful for playing small campaigns. Already i have created Pelargir and the surrounding area, and have also attempted creating part of Rohan and Isengard.

I couldnt really tell if what you were trying to do was create house rules for the Lord of the Rings or Warhammer - so which is it?

If it is LotR then i think you may have to change a few things

Firstly i didnt understand this part



could you explain in simple terms?

I also think playing on a 1ft by 1ft hexagon is way too small!

Each hexagon could represent approximately 4-5 miles each way so in gaming terms your rules sounds like a bad idea. Instead you could choose the section of hexagon that you are in and play on a 24" board or a 48" board.etc.

If the hexagon has a fort or city or something then the defenders must defend their keep.

I think splitting your forces into troops, battalians and regiments would confuse the game more so. It would confuse me. Instead each player could divide their forces up at the start of the campaign and place each group in a hexagon that is theirs. Only you will know how many men are split in each group and not your opponent. To do this secretely you would write down on a piece of paper how many men are in each force. Different coloured/decorated flags could represent if a force is stationed in the hex. If there is no force then an opposing player can take the hex without casualties.

When you come to buy in more men, or train more men.etc. then your opponent can keep track of how much money you have spent. However you can allocate the points secretely on paper.

When an opposing player finally assaults you get to see their list. Then you show them yours. They cant choose to retreat and must fight as must you. Fight out the battle as normal. If you are defending a square then you set up second and choose were the terrain is (but in fitting with the campaign map - ie. there can be no river on the board if there is none seen on the relevant hex)

If both armies are marching into a foreign square they roll for setting up and equally distribute the terrain between them

I think that is all that i needed to say

My brain is going crazy today, so im sure ill be back later to add to the modifications i have made. Otherwise i like the way you are taking this TheElvenLord and hope you continue changing the way this could be played

jack

ps. please leave comments on how my rules work and what you would change.etc. thanks

Thank you very much Lorderkenbtand.Firstly , the bit you didnt understand.

1-If you go into a battle and you kill 1 and the enemy kills 5. Your troops are now down to 5.If you run away and you come up against another enemy you will only put down 5 miniatures.So any casualties / wounds you take in one battle gets carried to the next battle.

2-You now have a spare miniature lying off the gaming table/mighty empires table.You can buy this person back.(note:although the miniature is the same,fictisciously the person you are recruiting is a different person)And that person is garrisonned in the town or villiage you buy him back from. He cannot move to the next hexagon.He can only be accounted for when the respective troop moves to that hexagon.

Example- Battle in Hex A, losses - 5 men.
Buy 5 men in Town A on Hex C

The 5 men in Town A cannot move to Hex B.The Troop still on Hex A have to move back to Hex B and then Hex C.The 5 you bought then merge with the 5 survivors from the battle.
Now there are 10 in that troop

The only exception is, When you buy the 5 men in Town A. And while the Troop are coming back to Hex C,if the enemy attack the town and you have those 5 soldiers waiting for the Troop.When you go into battle on the board those 5 soldiers are placed with the other soldiers to fight.(this is a hard point to explain but ive put it as simply as i can)

3-Imagine or look at the Hexagon from White Dwarf.The Marsh one.If you dont have it there is a marsh in one corner and a road running parallel to it on the other side of the hex. Right imagine your forces were camped beside the marsh.Then the enemy come from one end of the road.When you get out the table.You position your forces around that campsite.You can move slightly to add realism.The opponent would position their forces at the end of the road. Exactly like with the hex but on a bigger scale.

Also in another situation.If you are camping on some mountains and the enemy enters the hex from a side which has a river running there.Your forces would be placed on the table on some mountains and the opponents next to a river.

Right i hope that helps

Next,i think that what you say about the board being in a section of the hexagon rather than the whole of it is a good idea.I just would leave that up to the players.After all this is custom rules.It just comes down to preference.Sometimes i might play the whole board,others just a part of it.I am going to start building a table and i will playtest both options and see which one is best.

Now,I agree about the fort and castle bit.Im not sure if thats how my writing expresses it but thats what i have tried to say.You would have a castle and place it on the table and defenders would defend it and attackers would have to reach the center or some other objective.

I aggree with you about splitting the people up into groups.But what i was trying to get at is that you could paint logos of each group before hand on the models (to help see what i mean go to page 85 of WD#331 and look at the bottom).But i do totally aggree with you on your idea.In fact i like both the ideas equally if not yours more.Again i will play test to see which one is better.

I totally agree with you on everything else.As i have said, critisism can help ideas.And our ideas lorderkenbrand have been very useful.I look forward to hearing more of your ideas.

Anyone else with any suggestions are welcome.

ps.I was thinking of,in the battle stage, every 10 turns if anyone is in the next row of hexagons around the one you are fighting in then they could join the battle from the appropriate point.

Example. Battle.10 turns gone.There are forces in the next hexagon beside you.They join the battle as reinforcements.Then after another 10 turns.The next ring join the battle.


Thank you

TheElvenLord

no problem



I totally understand. This would be a superb addition to the modifications but for one tiny thing. I will use an example to explain.

In the Roman period, a worn down unit could be retrained (and gain extra men to complete its numbers) only in a town/city. They would travel to the relevant outpost/town/city and have that unit refreshed and fully ready.

My point is that the number of men who die in a battle would not simply be replenished by more men, back at the nearest fort. Instead the injured unit would travel until they reached the outpost, were they would be retrained. This way, you dont get half a unit popping up here and there and it makes it more realistic.

The rule could therefore be that a unit can be retrained if inside a friendly town/city.

Units could still be bought but these could be mercenary units (khandish horseriders etc) or they could simlpy be in a friendly city

Ahh yes the flags could represent different units, thats a nice rule. I was also thinking of converting some of the model; citys etc to make a minas tirith and cirith ungol.etc




Thats also a great rule. 10 is an easy number to remember. Though i would limit it to a distance of 1 hexagon as i have already stated that each hexagon represents a large amount of land.

I was thinking if you want to attack a town then you must wait a turn in order to build siege equip and 2 towns for a city. This gives other armies enough time to come to the aid of other allies

I love the idea of the cities being converted.So you could make the different cities.So you could play as the shire and you see little round doors.If you play as the elves you have grand cities and if you play as the men have cities like Minas Tirith and fortresses like Helms Deep.
There is only one problem.When you come to attack the City it would hae to have the replica in large form to play with.Not everyone has a Minas Tirith they could pick up and put on a table to fight in!!

Well as soon as i can i am buying the mighty empires set and then a hexagon board and lots of scenery.Then i can play this thing.But as it stands it is a concept.Any more rules,suggestions or anything by anyone out there welcome!
Thanks


TheElvenLord

Ps.If you collect WD can you tell me , in the june issue/30th Birthday issue,does it have an article on how to make hills.Im sure i read that somewhere,but i cant find it.Thanks.

In fact,talking about the induvidual groups of units ect,look at these and we could use things like this,they look well cool!!


http://uk.games-workshop.com/mightyempires/settlements/4/

I also dont own a Minas Tirith castle but you do not have to play that part of middle earth. I have recreated a section of southern gondor including ithilian and Pelargir and the river Poros. My point is that there are no unique settlements there except Pelargir and that was only briefly seen in the films.

You can play over Rohan as there is loads of land there also as well as in the North.



yeh i like them too. I am trying to think how you could make an emblem to fit. I am thinking a shield from a gondorian soldier while a warg rider shield for mordor. They seem to fit.

jack

ps the WD in june only says how to paint a hill - it regards the new set that came out with the plastic hill

You could have different colour schemes for each gondorian group.So you could have the shield,raised silver the rest black.Then you could have Raised black and rest siver.Then maybe Raised Gold rest silver.Raised Silver rest Gold.Raised Gold,rest Black.Raised black rest gold.See there are already lots of things for the groups.Maybe actually sticking a gondorian shield to the pennant would be cool.

TheElvenLord

Here are my first thoughts on campaign rules.

Each "unit" on the board represents a number of points rather than a specific force.





The outcome of the battle determines what happens to the force afterwards.
major victory - no loss
minor victory - 25% points loss
draw - 50% points loss
minor defeat - 75% points loss
major defeat - total loss (If using idea 2 above then named heroes can be given a chance to escape)

Gold generated by resources can be used to buy extra points which can be added to a force in a city/castle or used to raise a new force in a city/castle.

Let me know what you think.

yeh i like idea number one. You could infact use the 15mm Battle of the Five Armies miniatures - they are pretty cheap and small and perhaps a better scale.

I am sorry Farmer Maggot but i dont quite understand the Code 1.Can you please explain.
Thanks

TheElvenLord

Let me try to explain idea 1 again.

Each model represents a force of a set number of points. The size of the force determines whether to represent the force as a warrior (0 to 250 points), unamed hero (251 to 500 points) or named hero (501 to 750 points).

e.g. you have 4 forces, 150 points; 175 points; 450 points and 600 points.

150 point force represented by a Warrior of Minas Tirith.
When this force is involved in a battle you choose a 150 point army using the LoME rules from either The Tower of Ecthelion, Minas Tirith or The rangers of Ithilien, this is because the WoMT can be in any of these lists.

175 point force represented by a Axeman of Lossarnach.
When this force is involved in a battle you choose a 175 point army using the LoMe rules from The Fiefdoms, this is because the AoL is only in that list.

450 point force represented by a Captain of Minas Tirith.
When this force is involved in a battle you choose a 450 point army using the LoME rules from either The Tower of Ecthelion, Minas Tirith or The rangers of Ithilien, this is because the CoMT can be in any of these lists.

600 point force represented by Boromir, Captain of the White Tower.
When this force is involved in a battle you choose a 175 point army using the LoMe rules from The Tower of Ecthelion, this is because B,CotWT is only in that list.

I hope that is clearer.

Right, so instead of using pennants,have models representing that force on the hexagons hemselves.Do you write down before the game. 175 pt.Fiefdom army. Then place any of the fiefdoms characters down.Well,i like the idea.Now i have 2 very different but both brilliant ideas which i have to chose from when writing down the rules.I will playtest and then choose.It may take a while but not too long.

Idea 1 - Lorderkenbrand`s idea

Pennants represent a force unknown to the enemy.Only you know how many points are represented by that pennant.You come to fight and you show eachother the amount of points and play.

Pros- A certain secrecy element is added to gameplay.
- You can surprise the enemy by bringing in a large force.
- You can bluff
- Realistic in the sence that the enemy has no idea what army or how strong it is until it gets close.


Cons-Can only place pennant in middle of hexagon.
-Pennants are quite small and with lots of groups may be hard to differentiate.

Idea 2- Farmer Maggots

A marker such as a soldier represents the force.That then moves around.The enemy has some idea of how strong the army is and knows generally what type.


Pros- Can place model in strategic positions,eg on mountain or on one bank of a river.
- Add some realism to it in the sence that the model can move anywhere.


Cons- Enemy knows roughly how strong your army is.
- Enemy knows generally the type of your army.
-The bases may not fit....unless you use these 15mm BO5A which i do not know about(some one explain please)
-does not allow mixtures of armies



Now i have made a sort of comprimise that you may or may not like and may or may not be better than the last 2.

Idea 3 - TheElvenLord

Each force cannot be stronger than 100pt unless it has a standard bearer.
The standard bearer(or banner bearer some may call it) is the same type as the army is,unless it has a mixture of the armies , then at the beggining of a game the Owner must state that that force has a mixture of armies.And it must after events involving it(like re-recruitment).
The background of the banner must correspond with this colour scheme.

Blue Background = 100pt - 1000pt
Green = 1000pt -1500pt
Yellow = 1500pt - 1750 pt
Orange = 1750pt-2000pt
Red= 2000pt+


Pros- Has the same manouvrbility as Idea 2.
- Has the slight secrecy as Idea 1
- Allows a mixture of Armies
- Adds realism as with idea 1 & 2

Cons- Enemy slightly knows force and strength
-[cant think of anything else but your welcome to add]


Well,lets see whos comes out best after i add this poll.Be fair and dont just vote for yourself because its yours.vote for what you think will play best.

Thanks

TheElvenLord

I think your idea could be used in addition with Lorderkenbrand's or Farmer Maggot's, so long as you're referring to banners carried in game rather than the pennants that come with Mighty Empires used to represent dominance. The biggest problem with your idea, ElvenLord, is that most armies aren't over 1.000 points, making almost all banners blue. I suggest reducing the scale, such as this:

Blue Background = 100pt - 250pt
Green = 251pt - 499pt
Yellow = 500pt - 750
Orange = 751pt-1000pt
Red= 1000pt+

You could also change the colors of the banners to make them a bit more Middle-earthy, such as brown instead of yellow or black instead of orange.

Thank you Ragnos.I just put down random colours to be honest.I would use LotR colours in game rather than those ones.What i was trying to put down was almost like a traffic light. Blue(thats not on a traffic light but oh well) meaning that the army is no real threat.Then green to say,look out.Then Yellow to say,take notice.Then Orange to say , get going sharpish. and Red saying DANGER.That made it easier to remember to me.But LotRsy colours would be fine.

I had thought of another Con with my First idea(at the top) and Lorderkenbrands.If we use the pennants for army markers we cannot use them for province markers.Its looking a bit more towards Idea 2/3 to me,but not saying that Idea 1 isnt good.

Thanks again Ragnos..

TheElvenLord

How are armies moved across the board in the actual Mighty Empires? Or can hexagons only be attacked if the attacker controls a region adjacent to it?

If the answer to the second question is 'yes' then I think Lorderkenbrand's idea might cause confusion and possibly running out of pennants. I'd go with Farmer Maggot's idea since besides being visually appealing 25mm bases should fit on Mighty Empires hexagons, they're fairly big. If they won't fit on hexagons with lots of texture like mountains then a temporary marker could be used. I think ElvenLord's idea could be used in conjunction with this, as they don't contradict one another.

Well,Each model can move 1 hexagon per turn.They can move anywhere inside that Hexagon except over rivers.You have to wait for the next turn to cross the river.Unless you have a port upgrade and a city on that hexagon then we would assume that a boat could feery them over.Or if you buy thr bridge upgrade then ou can just cross the bridge.But wherever you are on the hexagon if you are attacked thats where your forces are.And if you have been there for 2 turns then there are tents there on the battlefield.You can buy extras like a tower and palisades(they cost empire points) and they would be placed on the battlefield to play with.
You can move through neutral(ones which havent been invaded) and just carry on.Or you can wait for 1 turn and you would place a pennant there.
You can move through friendly(ones you own) without effect except garrison size.
You can move through other teams ones if you ask permission.
If you go onto another teams hexagon and havent asked permission,it is taken as hostile and you battle.If there are no troops in that hexagon then you can take it without battle.If there are troops there , you get out the table and play a battle.

Now for what i was saying about the "upgrades". When you are at one hexagon for 5 turns you get a town centre free or you can buy it after 1 turn.After you have built this town centre you can buy upgrades for it.These include - port,barracks,bridge,temples,market squares,extra housing district,compotition squares.Castles.Stronger walls ect. These all cost empire points, empire points you collect through having mines,taxes(1 gold per population.The population is determined by how many housing districts you have.) trading and other things that create revenue.

Now i was thinking of two things. Actually have physical objects which you connect to the city marker you already have.Like you have a city marker,chop off the stick off the bootom.Then use greenstuff to mould some warehouses.You could make the market district just a square with some stalls.Now you would make a dove-tail joint onto each each side (2 ejecting and 2 recieving).Then myou can attach each upgrade to eachother

Or have them written down on a board that you have City A and that has Port upgrade,Bridge upgrade ect.

Pros for physical object.
-Adds some fun to the game.
-Adds realism and you can see what cities have what,they would look good aswell.

Cons
- Would have to a-make your own city markers to represent each district/upgrade.
-May fill up the whole hexagon



Pros for written
-Doesnt fill up the whole hexagon.
-You can just us city markers.


Cons
-Not very realistic


Well, you decide!!

Hope this helps
TheElvenLord