maelstrom of battle

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:23 am

Played Maelstrom of battle for first time today.
Have to say it felt very odd.

Worst of it was going first, so marching formations on to board then suddenly realizing my opponent will be marching his on directly behind mine (with a suitably lucky dice roll), and get first dibs at a shot up by backside with no shield bonus, or first option to charge... into unprotected rear.

So really to be safe the first players has to reverse his troops onto the board to be safe? Not so, it just got shot up in the backside by longbows from other side of board.

Doh!

Angmar destroyed by,...elves again :-(

lorelorn · **Posted:** Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:35 am

If tasked with rolling for deployment before a game I will invariably roll Maelstrom. The first priority roll in Maelstrom is far more important than in the other deployments, as here forcing your opponent to go first denies them a turn of magic at least, and potentially a turn of shooting too.

However if it's you going first there are a couple of things you can do to mitigate this.

- protect your rear! don't move so far onto the table that enemy can come up from behind. There's no rush. The only time you should move at the double is when doing so will get you into defensible terrain. which leads to...

- claim the ground! use the fact that you are moving onto an empty board to claim that ground and control the board in later turns. Your opponent isn't going to enter and stand in front of your crossbows so run them into that wood or building for a 360 degree shooting arc next turn. Don't feel that you are at the mercy of random table side rolls either, as you can also mitigate the randomness of the table edges if you...

-bunch up! The long and short table edges aren't so far apart. Depending on your rolls you can bring all your formations that enter from the long table edges on near one short table edge. So for example all your formations that roll a 3, 4, or 5 will deploy close to one another, with one lonely formation up the other end of the table (hopefully in defensive terrain. Bunching up also denies your opponent certain areas of the table - try to make this to your advantage.

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:49 am

Hmmm, thanks for the tips.

I think I was a bit miffed, as I had come up with a plan; swamp enemy with numbers. Didnt bother with any command (as per forum tips), and we had voluntarily restricted ourselves to only 2 epic heroes per sides in a 1500pt game. (at my suggestion)

I had expected to grind forward and eventually overwhelm.

Instead I just ground... no at the double rolls to move anything anytime fast.
Highs - I killed a formation of 2 coys hobbit archers, and one form of 2coy high elf cohort - yipee I killed some elves.
Other than that I lost about 1000 points of troops, and gave up on turn 6. Seize the Prize.

Its official - I am the worst player in the world!

Still, I guess I still like to paint the figures if nothing else...

BlackMist · **Posted:** Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:14 pm

Quote:

Worst of it was going first, so marching formations on to board then suddenly realizing my opponent will be marching his on directly behind mine (with a suitably lucky dice roll), and get first dibs at a shot up by backside with no shield bonus, or first option to charge... into unprotected rear.

You're using reinforcements rules, you can't at the double or charge on the first turn. I'm not sure whether you can shoot. It's all in the scenario section.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Yeah, you can't charge the turn you come on. Nothing says you can't shoot though, so if the enemy archers can get on the table with half a move they can still snipe at you.

Celebdriel · **Posted:** Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:09 pm

Yep, we got the charge thing wrong (missed it after reading the senario through a couple of times - Doh!, although it did cost me the Elven Cohort - charging into the rear of stuff is not all it's cracked up to be - because generally the unit survives and his buddies tend to gang up on you), but not the at the double, we only at the doubled after our initial move on.

As we haven't played this scenario before we didn't realise how important the first turn was, that said though you can still use wings of terror in your first turn as scott did to get onto the board further. Scott also had lots of 3 & 4 company formations, (Carn Dum, Orcs, Ghosts) his largest being 6 coy of Goblins who never arrived! I used a 6 coy formation of Glaive armed HE, which I thought worked very well (alot of points in there with Elrond & a banner too).

Played on an 8 x 4 probably should have stuck to a 6 x 4 because it did limit Scott's movement ability - that said my wee hobbits stubby legs meant they were out of the battle for the most of it on one side of the table- I must say their shooting is just as good as anyone elses and there extra numbers do help the small Elven Army.

As far as shooting goes the reinforcement rule says - deploy one company at the board edge and make a full move (does this mean it counts as a full move even if you decide to sit on the base line) - this might prohibit shooting unless you heroic shoot - thoughts?

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:21 am

Celebdriel wrote:

As we haven't played this scenario before we didn't realise how important the first turn was, that said though you can still use wings of terror in your first turn as scott did to get onto the board further. Scott also had lots of 3 & 4 company formations, (Carn Dum, Orcs, Ghosts) his largest being 6 coy of Goblins who never arrived! I used a 6 coy formation of Glaive armed HE, which I thought worked very well (alot of points in there with Elrond & a banner too).

Played on an 8 x 4 probably should have stuck to a 6 x 4 because it did limit Scott's movement ability - that said my wee hobbits stubby legs meant they were out of the battle for the most of it on one side of the table- I must say their shooting is just as good as anyone elses and there extra numbers do help the small Elven Army.

I think next time I will try larger formations and include command figures.
I was just wary of big formations being unwieldy. Last time I tried large formations I just got caught in the flank...

I am intrigued as to some guidance with respect to, at what army size would you consider upping the board size from 6 x 4 as per scenario guideline. We have so far routinely played on a 8 x 4, or 8 x 6. ( I am looking forward to day we have enough troops assembled to cram onto my 12 x 6 :-)

)

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:25 am

lorelorn wrote:

The only time you should move at the double is when doing so will get you into defensible terrain. which leads to...

- claim the ground! use the fact that you are moving onto an empty board to claim that ground and control the board in later turns. Your opponent isn't going to enter and stand in front of your crossbows so run them into that wood or building for a 360 degree shooting arc next turn.

This doesn't work too well against elves thanks to 'Natures Wrath' . That vaped my last battered orc battalion (with prize) and 'wraith hiding in it. At that point I surrendered...

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

jscottbowman wrote:

I am intrigued as to some guidance with respect to, at what army size would you consider upping the board size from 6 x 4 as per scenario guideline. We have so far routinely played on a 8 x 4, or 8 x 6. ( I am looking forward to day we have enough troops assembled to cram onto my 12 x 6 :-)

)

Well, I recently played a game that was 4000 points to a side on an 8x4 and that was too cramped.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:07 pm

Regarding the table, we play 2000pt per side on a 4x8 and it's pretty good. Shield Wall (deploy on long sides) can be a bit surprising because such a large force is on each other so quick, and maelstrom would be really interesting (haven't had that at this point level yet though). I'd say 3000 would still be playable on that size but getting very crowded. We don't have a larger table available at our LGS without pulling a couple together, and then I'd probably never be able to reach half of the models (5'6") so I don't think I'll be going much bigger of a game. :no:

As posted above, in maelstrom if you're forced to deploy first it's probably best to pick one short edge and put any of your long edge deployments as close to it as you can. You pretty much abandon any of your models that deploy to the opposite short edge to their own fate, but you will do a pretty good job of securing the rest of your force. With any Formations deployed along 2x long edge plus 1x short edge all in generally 1-move + charge range of each other there's a good chance your opponent will elect to deploy as far away as possible (or at least far enough away not to get overrun right away). Of course, if they have a Mumuk then you may want to spread out as much as possible. :shock:

Now, if you have second deployment I'd say look for any Formations that are vulnerable and maximize your chance to hit them hard right away. As noted you can't shoot normally but that doesn't stop magic, thrown weapons, Epic Shot, etc, right (sorry...rulebook not available and I don't have a lot of experience with this deployment in WotR). Some of this only works if you are deploying second so you may be SOL. If you go first, you could come on full distance and about-face your forces so that you present your strongest side to any enemy that come on in the same area, and this also works best if you are able to cluster your forces near one short-edge so that you can cover your own back.

I often find in these pell mel deployments the first (and sometimes second) turn can really decide the game. If you're army is dramatically stronger on defense, then turtle up and hold out as best you can while pulling together to counter. Otherwise, and for most forces, find as many weak points in your enemy's situation as you can, and jump on them as aggressively as possible. I would hold little in reserve from this initial blast if there was a chance of separating and destroying key Formations or Epic Heroes. Well played your enemy may not be able to recover. The "real" damage to the army is one thing and a major goal, but damage to his psychology / plan can be as important or even more so. Everyone has ideas on their deployment and how they intend to see the game play out, so when you are suddenly thrown in the chaos of random deployment and then see a major (in terms of usage) part of your force crushed right away it can throw you off for the rest of your game.

For this reason, it's also good to try to think out as many possible situations like this you may find yourself in. What if your key Formation and it's Epics are the only models that end up on the far edge of the board and are destroyed right away? What if you find yourself split almost evenly but your enemy overwhelms you in one spot...do you have options with Might or Magic to get together fast and if so is it worth it? Have enough ideas in your mind that you don't find yourself engulfed in the despair if the chaos is turned initially against you.

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:02 am

@ Beowulf
Thanks again for your feedback and lengthy thoughts.

I think you are quite right in one respect in that having had a plan, I expected to follow that through. When Maelstrom turned up, it stuffed my plan, and I found myself as usual get out-initiatived, out positioned, and destroyed piecemeal by the elves again, after a couple of early victories...(hobbits and cohort that was in retrospect badly positioned...)

Looking back if I had taken fewer bigger units instead of several smaller ones, with a couple of captains, and deployed as you say to one corner, things may have been different. I was also trying an army I hadn't used before, with special beasties I hadn't used before, to a player imposed scenario: more troops and limited Epics to see how that effects the battle.

The result was too many changes in one game, for me I think, that just knacked everything for me, busted my psychology, and had me in a head down tail spin, once again feeling elves invincible.

I think we've played each other half a dozen times and I have lost every one..., yet I don't want to get Cheesy (5 wraiths and gothmog) just to win. I'd still like a sensible themed army that has an equal chance to win. That was why we tried to see what the effect of limiting the Epics to 2 per side would do...

My only concern now regarding Maelstrom is that it seems a game that can be effectively over in a couple of turns, just down to bad luck with dice and unit positioning and whether they turn up at all... I am not sure if that then becomes a fun or frustrating game to play. Is it worth forgetting this scenario and just concentrating on Shields Walls and Battle for the Pass, where a plan can be made and armies can approach each other in 'regular' fashion...

In general terms I still have hopes for our next game, new things and ideas to try...

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:16 pm

Ambushers is a nice way to help equalize the risk. Just because you have a Formation that has the ambush rule doesn't mean you need to use it. So if you want to deploy them normally then go for it. But if you're in a scenario where deployment is not in your favor or you just want a wildcard then this at least ensures you know where and when the Formation will come on and you may use it to strengthen your hold on an area or reinforce a weaker side.

Ambushers also lets you deploy your Epic Heroes within the ambush formation (under normal restrictions). So if you are worried about loosing an important Epic or want to be sure they are in the strongest possible Formation after the first turn then you could stash them in the ambushing units. Then reveal them starting Turn 2 or later and, if possible and appropriate, jump them to another Formation near by.

I would not suggest eliminating this deployment option from the list you play as it really is a good exercise. And because of the very nature of how it impacts the players I'd guess it would also be a popular one in events.

When you build your list and you make your plan for optimal deployment stop and think about how you would manage your force in a maelstrom deployment. What are your weak points? It's likely those same weak points can be leveraged against you in other games as well. How can you replace or cover those? If it relies on a specific other Formation being there to support then they will probably remain a weak point.

Basically, I feel that if you can play your army under the conditions of a maelstrom deployment then you will probably be stronger at playing a more favorable game. That which does not kill you makes you stronger.

What was the list you were playing?

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:35 am

Beowulf03809 wrote:

What was the list you were playing?

First up thanks again for your thoughts.
Ambushers could be an interesting option... although I don't current have too many ambushing troops types...

My List was:Angmar plus themed allies
3 ghostly legion
3 orcs with shields
3 orcs with shileds
3 carn dum barb
3 carn dum barb
4 carn dum barb
6 moria goblins
4 giant spider
1 bats
1 court of fallen kings
1 shade
1 cave troll
dwimmerlaik
tainted

1500 points, no command or heroes other than wraiths.

I know this was low in might, I know the bats are fragile being only one co.
I should have grouped orcs to 6, and barbs to 6 + 4 or 5 + 5

It didnt help my gobs didnt show at all. :sad:

Xelee · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:10 pm

Hi Scott,

Within the restrictions you have, it looks like you could have had the infamous Buhrdurer (represented by whichever troll in your collection you like the best) as another utility (anti) hero?

I think that lot would definitely have been more useful grouped differently, and if you are restricting Epics like that (which I think isn't the worst houserule I ever saw, there is sadly a lot of resistance to it down here) I would be looking to field those Carn Dum in fives with Captains, most likely. Charging and movement matter so much to them and it would really free up the Wraiths.

I kind of like Maelstrom. I have experienced some truley awful games of it, going second vs a Moria horde sticks in my memory. However, there are so few missions to start with, and it favours slightly different things than the bash that is shieldwalls. Battle for the pass would be my least favourite, this is tedious indeed vs a properly efficient (which means magic too) shooting army.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:58 pm

You nailed the first option with the recognition of grouping your Formations wherever possible. Doing so doesn't change your army list (it is pretty cheezy to have different lists you swap to based on deployment scenario but I've seen some do it). But I don't think changing the grouping of your companies into larger or smaller Formations is an issue. A real general would adapt his deployment to the situation as well and you should be able to do the same. The larger blocks would be a little more survivable if positioned poorly by evil dice.

Also, whoever gets next to that Shade would have an advantage as it can often scare away engagements, with Fight equalized down for all Heroes and warriors.

Xelee had a great point that if you're capping Epics as a house rule then you increase the value (or at least decrease the liability) of Captains. More options for At the Double, better chance of keeping your force together and a couple points of Might for the occassional Heroic action. Ghosts, Orcs and Barbarians could all benefit from one but you probably only want to invest in one or two total so play it out and see who gives you the most bang for the buck.

Also, try a few games with your Troll being a Proxy for Buhrdur. Although I really don't think H2K models have much survivability in many games, VH2K does help a lot, and he's an Ambusher with decent stats and a couple nice Epic Actions too. You probably loose your Cave Troll pretty quick but you will have your enemy watching his back if he thinks this guy may rush out of a terrain feature at any point and catch him in the back.

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:01 am

@xelee & beowulf - thanks for both constructive replies. I agree with a lot you say.
I have Bhurdur too:
http://scottswargaming.blogspot.com/search/label/Bhurdur
I'll have to give him a whirl... the ambusher ability may well make enemies think.
Btw - how do you rate Ghulavar?

I had a brief game against a mate tonight; 1400pts elves vs mordor, and it just so happened dice tumbled to same again : seize prize and Maelstrom.

I explained the ramifications of deployment to mate, and off we set.
I stick to a plan and stayed to one end, and knowing you couldn't charge on first turn made a difference.

Played about 3-4 turns and it went well for both sides.
As predicted one elven unit (galadhrim reg) got caught out pinned in corner, but others; gildor, wood elves with thranduil and sentinels, held some ground and were organising to make a fighting withdrawal covered by shooting lengthways down board.

Glorfindel and Mounted Wraith duked it out, with wraith succumbing but glorfindel lost all might and on 3 wounds.

But we ran out of time to continue.

But I felt a lot better about it, and look forward to more games.

I think also a lot of it is understanding the spell combos, and what works well against what. How to deal with glorfindel for example, and other mini parts to the overall plan.

I think Ive always been more of a painter than a players just through time available to play, but a few games under my belt in quick succession and a few ideas start to stick :-)

Xelee · **Posted:** Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:49 am

I knew you had one painted up, I just am not a fan of the actual Buhrdur model - I like my big troll with hammer much better, really focuses my opponent's attention :lol:

Practice does make gaming go much easier. Once you don't need to think about low level stuff, you can start to focus more on the high level stuff: how to play out the game.

I really like the Terror of Arnor and think he (it) makes a lot of sense for a 1500pt list. He was also on my 'to get' list, but I ended up with a troll model first. It is a 12" move flying model with Epic Strike and can double move. Its other abilities are handy too. I tend to think the best things in the Angmar list are the two 125pt Wraiths, those two monsters, and the Carn Dum warbands.

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:12 am

Xelee wrote:

I knew you had one painted up, I just am not a fan of the actual Buhrdur model - I like my big troll with hammer much better, really focuses my opponent's attention :lol:

Actaully I quite like the Bhurdur model. He is afterall a glorified cave troll, and not as big as a Mordor Troll (differing base size), but I think that could work to his advantage - lulling people into a false sense of security - "oh he's only a cave troll..."

Xelee wrote:

Practice does make gaming go much easier. Once you don't need to think about low level stuff, you can start to focus more on the high level stuff: how to play out the game.

I really like the Terror of Arnor and think he (it) makes a lot of sense for a 1500pt list. He was also on my 'to get' list, but I ended up with a troll model first. It is a 12" move flying model with Epic Strike and can double move. Its other abilities are handy too. I tend to think the best things in the Angmar list are the two 125pt Wraiths, those two monsters, and the Carn Dum warbands.

Yeah, I think Ghulavar will be interesting to try out... and I agree with your thoughts on the Angmar list in general, the spooky stuff doesn't do all that much especially against elves...

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:37 am

Celebdriel wrote:

As far as shooting goes the reinforcement rule says - deploy one company at the board edge and make a full move (does this mean it counts as a full move even if you decide to sit on the base line) - this might prohibit shooting unless you heroic shoot - thoughts?

"deploy one company at the board edge and make a full move"

Actually I reread this and it says 'MAY' make a full move. Which suggests if you only move half pace you could still shoot in shooting phase.
There is no mention of magic in this respect and since its part of move phase then I guess Magic is a go too.

Celebdriel · **Posted:** Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:47 pm

jscottbowman wrote:

Actually I reread this and it says 'MAY' make a full move. Which suggests if you only move half pace you could still shoot in shooting phase.
There is no mention of magic in this respect and since its part of move phase then I guess Magic is a go too.

Yep I found that too when I re-read the rule, just didn't post as it seemed to have slipped off the radar

maelstrom of battle

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