question on declaring heroic/epic actions

smaul · **Posted:** Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:49 pm

In the rules it says that if the side with priority decides not to do a heroic action and the side without says they will the side with priority can change their mind and then you roll a die to see who goes first

so here is my question

lets pretend it is the charge phase.
Gondor declines
Mordor says Im going to do one
Gondor says, wait, then I want to do one

they roll and Gondor gets to go first so it declares a charge, so now it is Mordors turn, but based on the charge by Gondor it would do Mordor no good to charge, so can they decline to do anything since it has changed? My understanding is you have to declare you are going to do an action but not what action.

You could use this tactic to bait the priority player into spending might and not using our own if you wanted to as well.

am I missing something in the rules?

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:03 pm

My understanding is once you declare an intent to make a heroic/epic action, it costs you might there and then, whether you get to then perform it or not.
EG. gondor WOMT declare heroic charge against orcs. Orcs declared heroic charge against Gondor rangers. They both spend their might at this point. Then Dice off. Lets say Gondor wins and goes first and charge orcs. Orcs cant now charge rangers, as they have been charged themselves, and have lost their might point for nothing.

smaul · **Posted:** Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:26 pm

hmmm, I guess Ill have to reread

we play you just declare you are going to do an action but not the actual action, so you are saying the person with priority could declare no action. then you declare a charge against them, and they could change and declare a charge against you and then you roll off?

so you dont just declare that you "want to do an action" but you actually declare the actions i.e. charge, move, shoot etc....?

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:35 pm

I believe you declare an intent to perform an 'action' (which will be appropriate for the phase of the game you are currently at). Where multiple heroes on both sides declare at same time, we dice off and put a marker next each showing which order they get a chance to act.

I think you are getting a little confused with declaring after priority roll at start of turn. Not so, unless its a heroic move of course as this is the first phase.
Heroics are declared phase by phase of the turn, and Epics whenever they are appropriate...

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

You both are declare that you wish to call something. Once you have done that you are committed to spending at least one point of might. You dice off for order and then go in turns to call specific actions.

So, in your example Gondor calls a Heroic Charge then Mordor has to call something (and HC is about the only thing to call in the charge phase). That isn't a total waste though, as Gondor's HC could stall.

The key is that once you say you are going to call an action you HAVE to call something when it is your turn to call(something that is legal) and spend the might for it.

According to the rules no, you don't have to say what the specific action is going to be until after the roll off.

smaul · **Posted:** Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:46 pm

ok, thanks ForgottenLore that is how we do it and then that answers my question on if you still have to burn the might point if you go second after dicing off, thanks.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:55 pm

We always declare WHAT action, not just that you're making an action, but since most of the Heroic Actions are pretty limited in when they can be called it probably isn't too necessary. If you're in the charge phase and you declare an Heroic action then there isn't really much else you're going to be doing.

It's important though that you are clear which of your Heroes are declaring the actions. You can't just say "I'm declaring something Heroic" and then wait until you see what your opponent does and how any dice off go to say which Hero was doing it. You need to at least be clear on WHO ( "Faramir is declaring an Heroic Action").

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Beowulf03809 wrote:

It's important though that you are clear which of your Heroes are declaring the actions. You can't just say "I'm declaring something Heroic" and then wait until you see what your opponent does and how any dice off go to say which Hero was doing it. You need to at least be clear on WHO ( "Faramir is declaring an Heroic Action").

Except that isn't what the rules say to do. The rulebook is very clear that you only declare your intention to call heroic (or epic) actions before the roll off. In point of fact the roll off is to determine who picks a hero to declare with first.

rulebook, p66 wrote:

If both players wish to make Heroic actions in the same phase, then the sides alternate picking a Hero to make a Heroic action. Roll a dice to randomly determine which side has first pick...

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:54 pm

I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out as it really does change things. I'm not sure I care for it, but it's pretty clear that you don't need to say "who" in advance. Gives a lot more flexibility to Heroic actions but also takes away some opportunities. I guess you don't even need to say how many you are declaring in advance of the dice off...

BoromirofIpswich · **Posted:** Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:50 am

A question that arose in a game last night falls under the heroic/epic action head.

Elrohir 'called' an Epic Defense when his unit was attacked by Gothmog, Khamul and the Dwimmerlaik. The Dwimmerlaik rolled a '5' and the cost the Epic Action rose to 2 Might which Elrohir did not have. Gothmog then copied this to give his unit Epic Defense. The debate hinged around the meaning of 'call'.

Does it have to take place or is merely trying to use it enough for Gothmog to copy?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Stepeh

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

An interesting question. I can see arguments both ways for this, but my reading is that if the Dwimmerlaik is canceling the action then it doesn't really happen and Gothmog can't copy it. That seems to both fit the rules as I think they are intended and is most fair, but like I said, I could see a RAW argument either way.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:57 pm

I think the Action really should complete in order for Gothmog or Theodred (I believe he has a very similar rule) to copy it. They need to see the action in order to respond to it.

This is definitely one of these rules that leaves too much to interpretation and can seriously unbalance things if it goes one way. This Nazgul /Gothmog combo is already one of the biggest opportunities for abuse in the current system but to compile it with the ability to duplicate someone's action at the same time you prevent them from even calling it is really over the top (as if this needed any more boost).

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:54 am

I concur, I feel if the Dwimmerlaiks ability cancels The Heroic action, then Gothmog 'sees' nothing to copy.
I think thats about as plain and sensible to put it.

BoromirofIpswich · **Posted:** Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:45 pm

The more I reflect on it, the more I think I was too generous in allowing Gothmog to copy actions that were 'called' yet did not take place.

My thinking has been changed by:

a) Everyone who posted disagreeing (thanks, as I normally play Gondor);
b) The Khamul/Dwimmerlaik/Gothmog combination is too powerful as it is;
c) It seems to run counter to what Gothmog's 'Master of Battle' ability is all about. Presumably Gothmog sees the enemy do something and changes his tactics to suit.
d) The RAW use the term 'declare' when dealing with Heroic Actions before they take place. Gothmog's rules use the word 'Call'. Okay, it is pedantic, but it reinforces all the above.

Thanks for your help,

Of course, the obvious solution even if it does occur is not to try to call a Heroic/Epic Action when you are facing Gothmog with 1 Might.

Stephen

P.S. In the game in which this question arose, in which we ruled that Gothmog could copy Epic Defence, my opponent forgot to use it anyway - well there was a lot going on in this melee: 3 Duels, 1 Epic Sacrifice and Khamul's Reflection.

P.P.S. As a house-rule we rule that neither an Epic Sacrifice nor Khamul's Reflection work on the Epic Hero himself.

smaul · **Posted:** Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:52 pm

I would also agree, that if it dint happen then Gothmog couldn't do it, and Im a Gothmog player if that helps any of your Gothmog opponents at all.

I agree, as a master of battle he sees it and adjusts, not just reads their minds as to what they were going to do.

Also I was doing some further reading in the rules and I did take that that HEROIC actions it says must be called at the "start of the phase", an EPIC Actions can be called when needed. Just food for thought, so you wouldn't have to call an EPIC Strike until just before the fight starts.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

smaul wrote:

Also I was doing some further reading in the rules and I did take that that HEROIC actions it says must be called at the "start of the phase", an EPIC Actions can be called when needed. Just food for thought, so you wouldn't have to call an EPIC Strike until just before the fight starts.

The rules say epic actions are called "when the Hero's formation is due to act." instead of "always at the start of the phase". That doesn't mean you can call Epic actions just whenever you want. Some Epic actions specify they are called at the start of a phase, some say they are called when the formation is due to act (like fight). So its not that you "wouldn't have to call ES until just before the fight starts", you can't call it at all until the fight (or duel) is about to start.

Although Xelee may disagree with me here, we just got into this over on Warseer a couple days ago, I don't see how anyone could possibly read the rules any differently.

Xelee · **Posted:** Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:58 pm

ForgottenLore wrote:

I don't see how anyone could possibly read the rules any differently.

If you want to say that things that refer to 'formation' also affect heroes, then I think you should be consistent.

It's not that confusing. The argument may be wrong, but surely it is not hard to understand?

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

I'm not sure what you are saying here Xelee?

question on declaring heroic/epic actions

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