The question is as the title really, To send out my A-Levels with a bang, me & my friends are having a 600pt SBG battle (we've recently got back into LOTR).

My Mordor horde is squaring off against a combined army of Gondorian men & Galadhrim.

Here is the list so far...

Orc Captain - no extra - 40
Orc Drummer - no extra - 40

Orc warriors (16) - shields - 96
Orc Warriors (26) - Hand Weapons - 130
Orc Archers (8) - bows - 48

All of this leaves me with... 246pts to play with, and I wanted an "overall commander" to help finish it off (preferably with some pts left over for more orcs)

I was thinking primarily of a wraith, possibly even the Witch King himself, on anything up to a Fell Beast (no variants of it though, horned, armoured etc...)
Or, if that was too expensive, Possibly Gothmog, maaybe on a Warg, probably on foot though - I would like a named character, since this is supposed to be a large army, it needs a character with a suitably large reputation to lead it! Not some nameless squaddie!

So - any suggestions for who I should pick? And while we're at it, possible improvements for the list? I don't usually fight elves AND men, usually it's just Gondor, but I am aware that shooting is an issue, hence the drummer...

anyway, thanks for the help!

The nazgul are perfect for their magic althought they amde them weak in combat in this game...
Anyway Gothmog's special rule will help you a lot...
So i would suggest to think first which one you prefer and then which one would help you win...

Off the top of my head, you should have enough points to swap a Captain to a Shaman, and add Gothmog and the Shadow Lord. That should help against courage tests, heroic actions and shooting.

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If that's the case, couldn't I do just that anyway? Orc Shamans are 50pts whilst Orc Captains are 40, so I could add the Shadow Lord & Gothmog anyway

The thing is though, two heroes which cost...255 to begin with is a massive point sink in a 600pt battle especially when I'll be relying on numbers to carry the day :/ = especially when we take into consideration that this is on top of 80pts worth of other stuff as well! =D I think one or the other would be most prudent... But I'd want someone who'd make a real impact, either in combat directly or on the magic front - Gothmog does look pretty tempting to be honest!

I suppose one thing I could do would be to have... Gothmog instead of the Captain, and the Shadowlord, giving me a saving of 40 extra pts which could go into say... a Fell Beast or more Orcs. Aside from that, Would the Shadowlord be really that effective? I mean, His Shadowy-lordiness thing only extends 6' to those around him, since I'm fielding a horde, would he really make much difference? If not, I'd rely on speed to get into combat ASAP, and get a combat wraith to hit the flank (I was thinking maybe... The Witch King or Khamul on a Fell Beast?)

Speaking of the Witch King - if I was fielding him as a combat leader, would he be effective if bought on a fell beast, with the Crown of Morgul? I mean on the whole, he would be cheaper to equip well compared to the other, more specialised wraiths, as he'd get his 3 attacks, the bulk & protection of a fell beast, and would still have about...10pts to spend on M/W/F before he'd be equal to the other named wraiths with just Fell Beasts. - and he looks cooler to boot with that spikey crown!
Thanks

600 points is a nasty point level for Good. The max jumps to 75 models, but Good will have trouble getting much if anything over 50, and only if they minimize heroes. Goblins and orcs can easily hit that, however. As a pure numbers game: higher fight score gives you +16% chance to win each fight. But if your model count is 50% greater the odds are still with you.

A witch king with 3/14/3 on fell beast is 170 points. This leaves enough points for another 2 archers (so you can volley), and a front line of morannons (bow shields). But that's a lot invested in one model at that point level.

Personally I'd prefer a lesser witch king (2/12/2) on horse (110 points). Upgrade captain to Gorbag from Cirith Ungol, who brings the orcs. Give your naked orcs some spears (or take 16 with spears, 26 with shield). Add 4 archers (12 total) so you can volley and lose a couple. Ally with drummer from Barad-dur, who brings morannons:

WK/horse: 110
Gorbag with shield: 50
Drummer: 40
46 orcs with one piece of equipment: 276
11 morannons with shield or spear: 88
4 morannons with shield and spear: 36
Total: 600 points, 64 models, 5 might

Like Whafrog says 600 is pretty bad for Good. In fact 600 is the level on which evil should forget about big heroes and go for as large numbers because Good just cannot do much to improve itself between 500 and 600. It's very different game than 500 or 700.

Here's a solid basic list if you have Morannons:

Shadow Lord on Horse
Drummer
20 Morannons with Shield
20 Orcs with Spear
20 Trackers

That's only 550 and will easily destroy many 600pts good lists already. If you don't have trackers, get orc bowmen or forget about shooting at all and swap them for more orcs, both shields and/or spears are good. Other than that you might want to invest in Grishnakh or Gorbag for some extra Might to bring it up to 600.

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Cheers for the help guys

At the moment I have no Morannons, I recently bought a large bunch of Orc Warriors on eBay - about... 49-50 in total I think I have =) The numbers you see in the list are everything I've got unfortunately.

The naked orcs are basically a combined group of all my spearmen, axe-weilders & weird scythe/spear/spike thing weilders. I have about...23 spearmen in total, would you reccomend giving them spears & putting the axe-men with the orcs with shields?

So the new list would run something like this...

Orc Warriors (19) - shields - 114

Orc Warriors (22) - Spears - 132

Orc Archers (8) - Bows - 48

- Oh, just so you know, we have agreed a house rule that you can volley fire with any number in a line So the 8 archers aren't a problem. And we tend to ignore specific army lists from the books, so there's no worry of alliances & so forth.

- As for Wharfrog's point on the witch King on a Fell Beast, do you think it would be viable to pay say... 155-160? So he'd have the Crown of Morgul, a Fell Beast, and then 1 F & M? Or do you think it would be better to go everything or nothing?

Is Gothmog, maybe on a Warg with some Warg Riders also a viable option? If it's going to boil down to a game of numbers, then Gothmog (maybe even on foot) with a bunch of Morannons could also work? What do you think?


Thanks

You should definitely have spears...you can't always get everyone in a fight, and more dice gives better odds. As for the rest, I think the main point is: at this point level, as long as you have the numbers, pretty much anything will work. If you don't have enough orcs, maybe you have other cheap factions to ally with, like Harad. Or maybe you can proxy some Isengard uruks for Morannons. Or maybe you have a set of warg riders...?

Don't get the crown of morgul if you get a fell beast, you can use the fell beasts attacks, so it will only be usefull if you lose the fellbeast. (Which shouldn't happen).

Hmm, just read up on the rules for Cavalry and the Witch does seem much more tempting now... For 120 points I get the basic package + a Fell Beast (which if it charges will get 3 attacks anyway, thanks to the 2 on it's profile & +1 for knock-down I think), which thanks to it's high strength & so on should make a mess of pretty much anything - I then have 15 points to play with regarding M/W/F in order to make the points up to Gothmog's cost of 135 (It was either the Witch King or Gothmog, so in this instance the max I'll go is to 135) - which leaves... 91 points to spend on even more orcs...



Spears are now included so that's that sorted, and I do have a load of Uruk Swordsmen & Pikemen left over, so I could use them as Morannon Proxies... At about...8 pts each with shields I could get 11 Morannons without going over, 12 if I'm allowed 5pt slippage (and I think that's pretty standard anyway for most SBG isn't it?)

Doing that gives me an overall body count of... 64 If my maths is correct. Of course, I could get more Orc Warriors instead..., 96/6 = 16, so thats...8 more Orcs with Shields & 8 more with spears?

Which of that lot sounds better?

Oh - here's an updated list too

The Witch King of Angmar - Fell Beast, 2 extra F, 1 extra M - 135

Orc Captain - Hand Weapon - 40

Orc Drummer - 40

Orc Warriors (19) - shields - 114

Orc Warriors (22) - Spears - 132

Orc Archers (8) - Bows - 48

So basically to round it off I can either choose 12 Morannons with shield, or 16 Orc Warriors (8 with shield & 8 with Spear)... which would be best?

Morannon are more powerful but mordor orcs can add size to your army...
So i would suggest the second option...

So heres the finished list...

The Witch King of Angmar - Fell Beast, 2 extra F, 1 extra M - 135

Orc Captain - Hand Weapon - 40

Orc Drummer - 40

Orc Warriors (19) - shields - 114

Orc Warriors (22) - Spears - 132

Orc Archers (8) - Bows - 48

Morannon Orcs (12) - Shields - 96


Bodycount: 64
Break Point: 32


Thoughts?

Come on, fill up the Witch King on Might points, it's the most important thing a hero can have, give him 3 not 1. Make him something like 3/14/3. Archers will be pretty useless, I would drop them, get more stats for Wk and change a few for more combat warriors.

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Im gonna step in here and suggest the dark marshall over the witch king, simply cos of the fight 6 and banner, khamul could work too...

Ok, a slightly updated list runs as follows...

The Witch King of Angmar - Fell Beast, 3 extra F, 3 extra M - 150

Orc Captain - Hand Weapon - 40

Orc Drummer - 40

Orc Warriors (19) - shields - 114

Orc Warriors (22) - Spears - 132

Morannon Orcs (12) - Shields - 96


Leaving 28pts to spare... I've removed the Archers, as 8 of them aren't really going to make a difference, but I'm unsure of what to do with the 28pts... I did consider dropping the Witch King to 2 exta M & F, thus leaving me with 38pts to spare, which could be extended to a nice 40pts with an agreement with my friends, but I'm unsure of what to do with it...

With 10 points, upgrade your Orc Captain to Gorbag + shield. Gives you an extra Might point and better defense. With the remaining 18, that's exactly 3 orcs, might as well take the ones with bows if you don't have any others left.

What I do is putting a large number of small unnamed heroes.
I would take 4-5 captains (or even better shamans) and their stand fast! will make your army stay in lines instead of running away as if they saw Sauron taking a shower. You could also take 3-4 captains/shamans and a nazgul if you wish (don't know the exact pts you have).

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Courage shouldn't be a huge problem if you keep a wraith around.

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Compulsorily acquired? You know what this means don't you, they're acquiring it compulsorily. - Darryl Kerrigan

Good point, I would take a wraith and use his -1 penalty to let the enemy run away!
If you take shamans, use fury!!! That is just automatic stand fast!

_________________
I love Goblins and I love strategy, so I'm TheGoblinTacticus

If I'm not using correct English, I'm really sorry but I'm Dutch