Sure, they should be skilled, but more skilled than men who spend their entire lives fighting against evil? There is no way they should be more skilled than Gondorians or as skilled as Numenorians.

I could see them having a special rule to reflect their mercenary status as being along the lines of they gain an advantage based on who they face. For instance, against orcs, they gain +1 to F, against Uruk-hai they gain +1 Strength, against goblins pretty much the Oakenshield rule, against Easterlings/Haradrim/any evil men they gain +1 to Defense. So, rather than having a static stat line that is on par with Numenorians, they would have a flexible stat line to represent the fact that they have faced a great many foes. They would have to be a point more expensive with 1 less fight, but I would definitely say that that would be a fair price for them, pretty much 8 points for a WoR with a good special rule.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

You are probably right, it was just a rule off the top of my head. But I was so thinking that they could spear support each other... Or it could be changed so its only against one race, or trolls or something. I don't know it was just an idea.

I actually like what Draugluin wrote up, it seems pretty cool to me

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Fight! Fight to the last man!

If this was to be our end then I would have them make SUCH AN END as to be worthy of remembrance

I like the idea behind Draugluin's suggestion, but I wouldn't have thought +1F was equal to +1S or D, personally. It comes into the game more than I experience, I know, but even so... Also,t he defence - combat only or against shooting as well? Also, why would their stats change against various opponents. as in, what's the fluff logic?

Regarding the F4 thing that I suggested, it was merely a suggestion,b ut if I were to back it up against the reasoning of the Gondorians and Numenoreans, my reasoning would be:
Better than Gondorians because Gondorians fight against the same foes repeatedly, so may be better against orcs, but would be normal against Easterlings (regarding fighting style/tactics) - a weak argument to be fair, but I did say IF I were to defend it
Same as Numenoreans because... Well, Numenoreans don't seem anywhere near as powerful as my impression of them are, to be fair, lol. Also, the Numenorean models are smaller than WoMT, when I was under the impression that Numenoreans were supposed to be taller

They are taller.....in their minds as far as the models are concerned....

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Fight! Fight to the last man!

If this was to be our end then I would have them make SUCH AN END as to be worthy of remembrance

But with that same point of Gondor, you would think with constant fighting that would lead to the cities having to give better training to soldiers, as well as learning/practice from all the fighting. IMO there isn't a realistic reason for Dale to have fight 4 compared to other good infantry.

The real issue is that the original good models are far too weak in general. Numenorians from the last alliance should have higher armor than gondorians, gondorians should have higher fight than orcs. Elves should be much more expensive but have 2 attacks, etc etc etc.

I think the Uruks, Orc, and other evil units are are fairly represented, as well as most heroes. Its the original good warriors that need to be fixed.

@Hashut's Blessing, the fluff behind the rules against different opponents is that they are mercs, so would have experience against a wide varity of foes. The rule would only be in the combat phase. The reason why extra fight against orcs but not against uruks or men is that extra strength won't help against regular orcs, extra defense won't help against Morannon or hunter orcs, but extra fight helps against both. As I said, that's just something from off the top of my head that I thought would fit with the merc fluff that GW gave them.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

That would be beast! But I have to agree with you, the earlier profiles seem as if they were test runs (which they were) and that's all fine and dandy, but probably should have been re-written once the basic ideas for each race was established. Though I think the basic elf profiles are fine, a two attack high elf profile would be nice.

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Fight! Fight to the last man!

If this was to be our end then I would have them make SUCH AN END as to be worthy of remembrance

i think too many special rules can make the game more complicated rather than more interesting if it is over done. So I have no problem with no special rule here.

Also i don't think there should be too much difference from one human fighter to the next regardless of race. Small differences yes, this one is elite that one isn't hence hight FV, this one has better armour than that one etc. But the basic start point should be more or less the same.

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I think a drug habbit would be cheaper...

It could be an idea, that the Soldiers of Gondor are a much larger population, lowering the "average", if you will, Fight value to 3. The men of Dale are a smaller group and the better fighters fill the ranks where the others are obligated to less martial roles in thier society.

I would have been just fine with Fight 3 Warriors of Dale, for the record. I am also of the mind that less special rules makes for a better game and keeps the models with those rules...well...special.

I am in total agreement about the good side being crapola. I reckon that the only good army that equals evil in terms of variety of units and heroes would be the Lothlorien and Mirkwood list. All others, while being incredibly popular, like Rohan, lack balanced profiles (warriors of Rohan should cost 5 points naked) and need elites that actually make a difference, I believe all the 'royal guard' models in the game should have 2 attacks, and maybe even 2 wounds.

From a fluff perspective I like both rules, but (as Hashut points out) practically speaking it's odd that they would get those rules and dwarves wouldn't.

However, and especially because both the book and movie emphasize the close ties between Dale and Erebor, I think a bonus that kicks in when in the same army as dwarves would a) reinforce thematic play, and b) allow them to stand out a bit while not adding special rules willy-nilly "just because." Perhaps a +1 courage bonus when fighting alongside dwarves, or even just justifying their higher F value as the result of training and fighting with weapons of exceptional craftsmanship (in the same way that a Dragon Knight or Dunedain's defense is not a special rule, it's just part of his profile, but it's given a background justification all the same).


Based on the way they're written in the books, pretty much all men are underpowered in the game and all orcs are overpowered, but given depictions in the movies (what very little we get of them) the Numenoreans weren't uber-fighters or anything.

The argument that "because they've been fighting their entire lives" doesn't really sit with me - can't the same be said about almost every group in the game?


From a mercenary background perspective, I kind of like the idea of adaptive tactics against different foes, but doesn't this sort of invalidate your earlier complaint about them being as good as Numenoreans? That rule would make them as skilled as Numenoreans at fighting when they need to be, and better than Numenoreans at several other things, when it suits them. Instead of being the same as Numenoreans, this effectively makes them better, because they get helpful bonuses when said bonuses are most useful without having to pay the full point cost of just having a better statline.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.

Nailed it. At the time, D6 was a big deal because there were few S4 warriors (only Isengard uruks), and F4+ was a big deal because most warriors were F3. The whole lineup of profiles needs a rebalancing.

Yeah...only wish GW thought they could make money doing this somehow because then the might. As is, I feel they lost the change when they brought out the warband sourcebooks and now just don't see any financial reason for them to go back to it. And they're not going to do it just because it's the Right Thing™.

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

@Hirumith, I wasn't saying that they should have that rule, just that that kind of rule would make more sense than just making them Numenorians.

One thing that I have noticed is the lack of stat creep in the Hobbit releases. The troop profiles are largely fairly priced, going by most of the LotR standards, and very few, if any, actually overshadow LotR troops in terms of being "OMG, they're so much better, must have". While Hunter orcs are good, they're fairly priced, same as all the other models (Grimhammers ARE fairly priced, it's just that Khazads are so OP that the Grimhammers are overshadowed). When you get to the heros, you do see some stat creep coming in, but you also see a really high point cost, for the most part. Thorin is one major exception. What I'm getting at is that these new models are fairly priced, the only profiles that need to be rethunk are the profiles from in between movies.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Gondorians were, by necessity, professional full-time soldiers. Men of Dale were largely traders, going by the book. It's only GW's "these guys sail around and solve everyone's problems" bit that makes the Warriors of Dale anything more than a militia or town guard.

I don't know if the movie will touch on the mercenary stuff, but I kind of doubt it. It would make no sense for most Dalemen to go off and fight in foreign wars but Bard to think "oh hey, I'm an awesome archer and a noble leader of Men. Yeah, I'll just hang out and be a watchman in a tiny little wooden town..."

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Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

Will be adding them to Thrors army now after reading the stats, missle support

Depends on that mercenary service was structured. It would be quite doable that a soldier whose lord can't really afford to keep him all year 'round would go off and fight for silver in the off season, or even on off years, and then return to his oath-sworn lord.

In other words, I can kinda see it.

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Dreaming of getting back to painting...any month now.