True, but after 6000+ years, I feel like he would have found SOME reason partly forgive them.

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Not necessarily. Elves live incredibly long lives. For an Elf, 6000 years might just feel like a decade or two. The transgressions feel like recent history to him.

Though I do think that Thorin's motivation for disliking and distrusting the Elves of Mirkwood is more justified than Thranduil's motivation for disliking the Dwarves of Erebor.

Thorin is outraged by recent transgressions in his own mortal lifetime against his people, just a few decade's previous.

Thranduil is outraged by transgressions in his immortal lifetime, which, though they feel recent to him, were committed by the Ancient Ancestors of Thorin. These acts were committed in Thranduil's lifetime, but NOT in Thorin's. To Thorin, these acts were ancient history and the stuff of legend.

Thranduil is bearing a grudge against Thorin for the actions of Thorin's ancestors, thousands of years ago. Visiting the sins of the father onto the son.

Would it really have been so difficult for Thranduil to apologise for turning his back and refusing to aid the refugees fleeing Erebor?

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@Draugluin, in the book and film he does say to Thorin upon locking him up "100 years is nothing to an Elf", so he wouldn't necessarily feel the need to forgive them fast.

To whoever asked about "how will Bard know about the missing scale?", Bard is the one to mention it first, hence why Bilbo says "So it is true" upon seeing it, although it seems to be more of a rumour or an urban legend to Lake-town than a known fact.

RE: Thranduil's white gems ... isn't it mentioned in the book that Bilbo gives him a chest of white gems from his share of the loot? Is this a nice little nod to the book from PJ?

I liked the film mostly, but as others have said, Smaug falling for the dwarves' "let's all run in different directions, and he won't actually kill any of us, only chase us until another distracts him" plan was OOC considering the incredible cunning he possessed in earlier scenes.

Azog looked much more magnificent than in AUJ, but I felt Bolg didn't look too spectacular. Was it supposed to imply that Bolg was one of those listening in on Gandalf and Thorin's convo in Bree, or was that a different big bald ugly monstrous-looking half-blind guy there?

By introducing Bard as the bargeman who gets them into Lake-town, it allowed the audience to connect with him more, rather than him being some paragon of goodness like in the book. I also liked the indications from the Master of Lake-town and Alfrid (Wormtongue Sr, anyone?) that Bard's ancestry made him a threat to them. Having the dwarves hide-out at his was a nice touch too, although Dwalin sticking his head out of their toilet made me think immediately of a very memorable scene from Johnny English!

I liked the idea of them going to simply steal the Arkenstone, not necessarily slay Smaug alone. It always seemed a bit weird to me (in both book and film) that those 13 dwarves, not all of whom even had proper weapons, were hoping to kill a dragon.

Gandalf's capture is an unexpected twist, and gives him a valid alibi to not be there for the dwarves (the moment when he realises that he can't go to them is excellent). I do believe the film implies that Gandalf travelled with Radagast on the much-loved bunny sled to Dol Guldur, which would be something I'd love to see! On a more serious note, with Gandalf having another staff broken, where does he get them all from? And also, he now no longer has Glamdring either, losing it with his pointy hat. I wonder how he'll get it back?

Legolas' scenes were good, particularly the one where he is searching Gloin and finds the locket with pictures of Gloin's family. First time Legolas sees Gimli! I liked Tauriel, but she seemed too much like a super-powered hero to me, shooting arrows from the air and being able to do healing on the same level as Elrond and all the healers of Rivendell on her own. Although, it could be a reason why Kili (the Skyrim addict) doesn't make it through the Battle of Five Armies, if he's still injured/recovering from the wound. I don't think it's a coincidence that Kili and Bofur, two of the dwarves with the most screentime and arguably the two non-Thorin dwarves we connect to the most (minus Balin), are still in Lake-town. PJ must've reckoned we needed more people there to worry about than just Bard and his kids.

I like the way that the ring is weighing on Bilbo a lot more, I've wondered for a while now whether Sauron's presence in Mirkwood would have affected it at all. His quick dependence on it, as shown when the white centipede gets near it, is consistent with how Andy Serkis played Gollum as similar to a drug addict in LOTR. Smaug talking Bilbo into taking the ring off was also brilliant.

Tolkein buffs, is the keyhole just not there at all on days other than Durin's Day, or is it just harder to find on other days? If so, does that make the secret passage useless 364 days of the year?

On a side-note, has PJ been chewing that same carrot in Bree for over 60 years now?!? He seems determined to see in the dark!

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You can leave through the secret passage whenever, but can only open it on Durin's Day.

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I like how it resembles Two-face from Dark Knight and Silva from Skyfall. He could be using Loreal magic makeup to conceal his wound. If I remember something correctly from Silmarillion though; Feanor's eldest son escaped being a prisoner of Morgoth when another elf cut his hand off to rescue him. He later grew a new hand but never forgot the injury suffered. So according to this if my memory serves correct, elves are like lizards where they can grow back body parts from severe wounds. Anybody can back me up on this or debunk it?

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I didn't think Maiglin (I think, been a while since I read it) grew it back, infact I specifically remember the book saying he became a better swordsman with his left hand than he ever was with his right.

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@Goldman25 RE: Gandalf's Staff: I reackon Radagadt will turn up to rescue Gandalf, succeed but then be stopped by Azog/Bolg/Necromancer, Radagast will sacrifice himself to save Gandalf and in the process give him his staff. In the Tolkein lore Galadriel tears Dol Guldor down brick by brick so I'm guessing Gandalf will find his gear in the rubble. Also remember that Radagast is expendable in PJ's universe, if anything he needs an explanation as to why he never even mentions Radagast in LoTR.

If Bolg is the one to kill Radagast, that may give Beorn more of a personal reason to mess him up, what with Radagast being the Steve Irwin of middle earth.

After seeing it again, I can confirm that there were 2 things about this movie that were bad and that very nearly ruin the whole thing: Tauriel (specifically the healing scene) and the Smaug chase. Tauriel was beyond unnecessary and the Gold Statue was stupid. I feel like Smaug was just toying the dwarves up until he gets doused, which is when he should have gone to Laketown. Taking out these 2 things would have given them an extra 15 minutes to flesh out specific parts, like Beorn, or even allowed them to show Smaug destroying Laketown. It could have ended with Bard shooting the Black Arrow, but before Smaug actually bites the dust if they needed a cliff hanger.

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It was Maedhros, rescued by Fingon, and you are right, his hand didn't grown back. He became an even better swordsman with his left hand.

In fact, Tolkien mentions somewhere in the beginning that elves were originally like men, only different in their immortality. I'm not entirely sure whether the wound on Thranduil's face in the film is real. How he's depicted, I could see him actually using some form of illusion to taunt Thorin. Sort of like: "Well boy, that's cute, but come back when you're older and more experienced."

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After seeing the DOS I'm still wondering why PJ decided to keep Azog alive. They could easily have kept Azog's character design but called him Bolg, and call Bolg's character a random orc captain (something like Lurtz was). In my opinion it would make more sense having Bolg chase Thorin to the ends of the earth to avenge his father than having Azog hunting him for taking his arm. Hopefully it will all be rectified during the BOFA, i just don't know what it adds to the story. Does it say anything about why PJ made these decisions in the "Making of" extras in the extended editions?

Nope.

I've just watched them today, and IIRC when Azog came up, their position from the very start was...

"Azog dies in the appendicies. Thats a problem because we want him as our main big bad. Our solution? His arm was chopped off and everybody assumed Azog died from his wound but really he lived".

I'll watch it again tomorrow to doublecheck but it seems that they wanted to focus on Azog from the very start.

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Nope, he takes one chest of silver and one chest of gold as his payment. He also then digs up the Troll gold with Gandalf and takes that.



Bard gives Thranduil the Emeralds of Girion in the book. I think the white gems have replaced these emeralds in the films and will be resorted to Thranduil in TABA. In addition, at their parting Bilbo gives Thranduil a pearl and silver necklace.



As much as that would have made sense I think the reason is purely one for the audience - so we can see better! After the first shot of Smaug, Bilbo puts the ring on and I was dreading that the whole sequence was going to be in Ring-world vision. I was really glad when he took the ring off, even if it didn't make a lot of narrative sense, as it gave us a much better look at the digital wonder that was Smaug.



It was a different big bald ugly monstrous-looking half-blind guy



They say that as Azog killed Thror they wanted him alive so that Thorin has a personal grudge against that orc rather than taking it out on his son. I think that makes a lot of sense to be honest and that change really didn't bother me, Azog and Bolg occupy a total of about 5 sentences in the book so they're hardly the most fleshed out villains. I enjoyed Azog in the first film and was actually disappointed they swapped his and Bolg's roles around in DOS as we saw much less of him.



Making it the most useless and bizarre secret passage in the history of the world!

Having seen it again (2D this time!), I don't think the Thranduil would ever lead his people to aid a mannish village as in the book so here's what I think's gonna happen near the start of TABA that gets the elves to the BOFA in a different manner to the book:

Radagast contacts Galadriel and tells her Gandalf needs help in Dol Guldur. She then gets in touch with Thranduil and persuades him to lead his elves to attack the fortress (PJ has said it's like Helm's Deep but with the combatants on opposite sides of the walls) - Thranduil should listen to Galadriel and I think she's one of the few people who could persuade him to break his isolationism. There'll then be a big battle where Galadriel saves Gandalf (possibly aided by Elrond and/or Saruman, the latter of whom is definitely in TABA), carries him to safety (Cate Blanchett mentioned carrying a Gandalf replica ages ago) and possibly forces the Necromancer to flee to Mordor. I also think Radagast and Beorn will be involved in this battle - largely based on the Lego sets. Once he recovers, Gandalf will persuade Beorn and Thranduil - with Galadriel's agreement - to march on Erebor leading the elves to TBOFA.

You heard it here first Thoughts?!?!

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Makes sense, although I think Thorin doesn't need to have a personal grudge to enhance the story. It's about him going to reclaim his homeland and his treasure, and Azog/Bolg would only represent an obstacle on the way to his journey's destination (and the real antagonist: Smaug), and to be the force that ends the conflict between the elves/men/dwarves.
I've found PJ did this a lot in the movies where he went too in depth on developing his new expanded story lines and forgot too much of the original text. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy he's taking the liberty of adding things from the to the story that weren't in the book to expand it, but when he takes characters like Tauriel, Legolas and Azog, characters who weren't in the book, and gives them more screen time, lines, influence on the story and development than those who were actually apart of it, it puts me off to be honest. By my count, Tauriel and Legolas, individually, have had more lines and screen time than 8 of the 13 dwarves put together over two three hour movies. And they've only been in one movie. Heck, I think they had more screen time than Bilbo in DOS.

I just hope that the final movie can pull it all together.

On a side note, does anyone else get the feeling that kili and Tauriel are going to die next to each other in the BOFA ? She did read his "cursed" stone (possible allusion), and they are building their relationship, possibly so that it will create a stronger scene when they go down. She's not in LOTR so that would give them a way of explaining her absence. As long as he's protecting Thorin I'll be happy.

And I agree completely that seems the most logical way to segue into the BOFA. Although it would need Thranduil to arrive before the battle, to help seige the dwarves in Erebor, allowing Bilbo to steal the arkenstone and give it to them for leverage in negotiations to save lives. I hope they keep that part in, because its a big part of Bilbos development, standing up to Thorin.

Thror and Thrain actually escaped from Erebor via that passage, so it very much served it's purpose.

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I was under the impression that Smaug basically caused the ring to awaken more or did some magic to make it painful for Bilbo to keep the ring on in that scene. Which I liked as it gave a reason for Bilbo not wearing it.

As for the door I thought it could be opened at any time but as "Dwarf doors are invisible when closed" (Gimli, Fellowship of the Ring) that you'd have to already know where it is and where to place the key. Because as Gandalf points out "even their own masters cannot find them if their secrets are forgotten" (also Fellowship)

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I'm dreading that as well although I don't think Tauriel will die. The thing that worries me is that Fili gets almost no screen time. Fili and Kili are equally important in the books, and I can't understand at all why the focus is so much on Kili since the first movie.... What makes him more special or more awesome or more important than Fili is beyond me...

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Exactly what I was talking about earlier. If PJ had taken the time used to develop Tauriel and Kili's relationship and used it to better define the relationship between Fili and Kili and their loyalty to Thorin, the story would be better for it. Again, I'll say I dont mind PJ using his creative license to add to the story, but I just feel he bit off more than he could chew and ran out of time, diminishing the original story and characters. His additions should have complimented the story, not make it seem like we were watching LOTR again with Legolas everywhere. I truly wonder how many people who haven't read the hobbit, can match all the names of the 13 dwarves to their characters appearance.

I wonder if they even know all the names...

SPOILER WARNING CONCERNING FILI AND KILI



That being said, I don't know what PJ has planned for us in the third movie, so perhaps we're judging too fast here.

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