is my army cheesy

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:54 pm

Im going to a tournament, and I am going to be playing seriously. Im going to have fun but I want to win as many games as possible, and its only 3 games. I only have one guaranteed large tournament this year, because of location, and I want to make it good.

Several things to think about...I want to make a good army, and I will no matter what. I also want to follow as much as possible, the lore and not make an army with say, Boromir of the White tower, gondor, and Alfrid.....

but I do want to partially stray from the sourcebooks.

Im asking advice to you guys about both. I have two army ideas, and im not sure which to take. One is more safe with the brute force of Isengard.

The other idea, some people would call cheesy I guess. Its not the worst though.
My idea is that at some point at least one ringwraith went to Isengard with a host of Mordor to talk to Saruman and tried to get answers about the ring. My army, would be that meeting/overwatch of the Uruk Hai army. More like a homefront force of whats at Isengard. Here is that force:

Vrasku:
3 feral uruk hai
5 uruk shields
4 crossbow
Mauhur:
3 feral uruk hai
5 uruk shields
4 crossbow
Shaman:
3 feral uruk hai
5 uruk shields
4 crossbow
Witch King- Might-3 Will-15 Fate-2:
5 black numenorians
5 morannons with shield and spear

9 might, 50 troops, 14 crossbow shots per round

Thing Im afraid of is putting so many points in a wraith. I know I have a lot of tough troops already, but I replaced sharku and another basic warband with the wraith and 10 troops I believe are tough anyway. I mean, Morannons are as tough as uruks besides the fight value I believe and the terror caused by numenorians is good and they have a high defense anyway.

Here is the old army:

Vrasku-
4 uruk crossbow
5 uruk shield
3 feral
Mauhur-
4 uruk crossbow
5 uruk shield
3 feral
Sharku on warg w shield
4 uruk crossbow
5 uruk shield
3 feral
Shaman-
4 uruk crossbow
5 uruk shield
3 feral

9 might, 52 models, 18 crossbow bolts possible per round

I pretty much have to decide. Do I want more shooting and all Uruk Hai or could I put some mixed troops in there who are also good and have the power of a wraith. That wraith would ultimately also become my leader instead of Vrasku.

Also, some people might complain about the theme. I honestly dont care that much, because the wraith I assume went to Isengard to talk to Saruman.

I need help with the lore. I tried looking it up and found different things. Who went there? And which army?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:03 pm

Ringwraiths can have a maximum of 2 Might/Fate and 14 Will, so your over, lorewise, I doubt a Wraith would bring Black Numenoreans, the MoS would, but a wraith would take a fell beast and some Orcs.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:08 pm

I meant for it to be witch king my fault. Why the Mouth of Sauron any insight?

Delirivm · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:36 pm

I believe the Mouth of Sauron is in fact a Black Numenorean, correct me if I'm wrong.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:48 pm

Ah thats why. Well either way is it a thing that Numenorians are just guys who never leave their own realm?

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:49 pm

Would you guys agree though that one of the armies is clearly better?

chiefhugh · **Joined:** Wed May 15, 2013 9:53 am **Posts:** 116

Which army have you played with the most? Which are you most comfortable with? I like the second one better because it is simple and strong. It would allow yo to focus on the 3 matches instead of focusing on getting your points worth from the Witch King.IMO.

JamesR · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:06 pm

To be honest I think that the only "cheese" within Isengard is Vrasku and Ferals lol so you haven't avoided that. But save for "Reapers with Shades" and other cross-faction stuff it doesn't bother me

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:17 pm

chiefhugh wrote:

Which army have you played with the most? Which are you most comfortable with? I like the second one better because it is simple and strong. It would allow yo to focus on the 3 matches instead of focusing on getting your points worth from the Witch King.IMO.

More comfortable with Isengard but Im becoming more comfortable with how the wraith work.

JamesR wrote:

To be honest I think that the only "cheese" within Isengard is Vrasku and Ferals lol so you haven't avoided that. But save for "Reapers with Shades" and other cross-faction stuff it doesn't bother me

Well yeah. Vrasku is unavoidable if you want to pick your factions best worth.

And thank you for the rest lol.

SuicidalMarsbar · **Joined:** Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:14 am **Posts:** 1712

I apologize if we have already had the ensuing conversation (this sounds like a familiar topic to me) but why are the crossbows spread out across the warbands, it is far more effective to group them in one warband. Also, what pts size is this army? It looks like a 750pt list but i have been wrong before.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:08 am

Yeah we did I just wanted them spread out so they have an early defense and so there was bow fire everywhere just in case.

Galanur · **Joined:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:28 am **Posts:** 1389

I would probably pop the dwimmerlaik instead of the witch king... I do know he got no might but there is a couple reasons why using him.

1st he the only nazgul rohan hate most (places where Isengard try to destroy at 1st)
your army got cheap heroes with alot might, dwimmerlaik might make it worth those might points spent.. how?
making you calling more heroic moves and the enemy decide so, the dwimmerlaik might get your oponent to think twice by burning almost their entire might store to do that (2 points instead of 1) so you gonna get a better field control in the thick of the fights and gain the upper hand more often and for that the dwimmerlaik might help :)

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:38 pm

I really need more help guys with the idea of cheese or not. So people think so far the wraith is OK but no numenorians?

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:16 pm

On the point of cheese, I too believe that direct emissaries from Mordor would have likely visited Isengard. I have used the Mouth of Sauron (mounted) and various troops from Mordor (his escort) in this way.

As for a Nazgul, almost any of them on a Fell Beast could be seen as a messenger if they travel alone. I also think a Nazgul on horse with some troops (foot and/or mounted) is fine. A Nazgul on FB with troops is pretty heavy-duty for an envoy, but then again there's nothing saying Mordor wouldn't want to rattle its saber and make sure Isengard knew who was in charge. Personally, I probably would not put the Ringwraith on a Fell Beast w/ an Isengard army unless it was there by itself as that is a little borderline in my own vision of Middle-Earth. I would either do the N/FB only or N/horse with troops.

The question of Army Leader is a different story. Would the White Hand's Uruk Hai follow a Nazgul's orders? We know the Nazgul would not accept anyone else in charge than themselves. I think leadership is more of a sticky point thematically.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:26 pm

Thank you very much for the input. I would say the White Hand follows Mordor because they are the ones tasking them with building an army and just a faction of Mirrors leadership

SuicidalMarsbar · **Joined:** Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:14 am **Posts:** 1712

Why not go for Saruman over a wraith? He fits in theme wise, is more powerful, and you get grima. It's a win win.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:15 am

He's such a high points investment. I don't have my rulebook here but I think he's 45+ more than I want to spend.

Knife in the Dark · **Posted:** Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:40 am

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

He's such a high points investment. I don't have my rulebook here but I think he's 45+ more than I want to spend.

True if I remember right, but what are you trying to use your ringwraith for? Because in some aspects the wraith is better and in others, Sarumam is better. And if what you want something out of the ringwraith that Saruman is better at, you might want to take out the extra points for him.

Just an idea to think about.

mertaal · **Posted:** Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:37 am

Personally I struggle to believe that a winged Wraith would want to be slowed down by a bodyguard of horsemen, or need them as a bodyguard. I say take the Wraith if you want him, but spend the Numenorian's points on more Isengard troops. At 750 points I think a solid core of high defence troops would be complimented by a few war bands of cheap flanking troops to deny spear support and create trapping situations.

But I commend you for being concerned with creating a canon-plausible army. I think calling it a "fluffy" army takes away from the truth that cross-faction cheese is an abhoration that should be met with tar and feathers!!

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:33 am

Knife in the Dark wrote:

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

He's such a high points investment. I don't have my rulebook here but I think he's 45+ more than I want to spend.

True if I remember right, but what are you trying to use your ringwraith for? Because in some aspects the wraith is better and in others, Sarumam is better. And if what you want something out of the ringwraith that Saruman is better at, you might want to take out the extra points for him.

Just an idea to think about.

Well what I want in terms of difference is 50 points less than Saruman.

I want the Witch Kings:
Drain Courage sometimes
Sap Will sometimes
Transfix OFTEN
Compel sometimes
Your staff is broken is priceless

Saruman only has:
Immobilize
Command

These are good but the ringwraith has more destruction of heavy pointed units. Saruman is 50 more points and although he provides a few cool things, hes just a huge point sink. I already am going out of my comfort zone with a ringwraith in general.

mertaal wrote:

Personally I struggle to believe that a winged Wraith would want to be slowed down by a bodyguard of horsemen, or need them as a bodyguard. I say take the Wraith if you want him, but spend the Numenorian's points on more Isengard troops. At 750 points I think a solid core of high defence troops would be complimented by a few war bands of cheap flanking troops to deny spear support and create trapping situations.

But I commend you for being concerned with creating a canon-plausible army. I think calling it a "fluffy" army takes away from the truth that cross-faction cheese is an abhoration that should be met with tar and feathers!!

Yeah Im not bringing a winged one for sure. As for using the Numenorians points for Isengard, well, the idea was to make the mordor point costs cheap because I need to make up for the wraiths cost. The numenorians are cheaper than any high defense Isengard troops so thats not possible.

Although I could throw in all regular orcs with spear and shield but id be getting horrible troops for only an extra 30.

As for crossing the factions....well it actually happens in the series so Im ok with it within reason. Its one thing to combine Eorl the Young and Aragorn the King in an army and its another to add Rohirrim to a Gondorian army, etc.

is my army cheesy

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