SPOILER - BOTFA - White Council - SPOILER

ja33 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:26 pm

While I generally enjoyed the movie, and I loved seeing Galadriel, Elrond and Saruman in combat mode, I have to say that I was SUPER disappointed not to see a full scale White Council led attack on Dol Guldur and the Necromancer.

Where was Glorfindel ??? I have been waiting for 5 movies to see him ! And where was Erestor, and even wise old Cirdan ? I even thought that maybe we'd see Arwen, Legolas and Thranduil all involved at Dol Guldur as well...

I was honestly expecting a full-on massive Elven attack on the stronghold with an army of Wood Elves and the entire White Council in a crazy, chaotic battle with loads of Giant Spiders, bat swarms, tons of orcs, and the 9 ringwraiths along with the Necromancer.

Is anyone else as surprised and/or disappointed about this as I am ?

6 movies in Middle Earth and no Glorfindel - bummer !

truck22 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:36 pm

I belive glorfindel is included as a minor character who urges Arwen to stay with the caravan of elves, also Erestor is, what I knows, a GW only character. Also, Thranduil had to stay with his elven army

Hill-Troll · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:49 pm

Thinking Glorfindel would show up is pretty naive...

Alatar of Rhun · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:16 pm

In the books Erestor asked whether Tom Bombadil could take the ring and also travels to the wedding in Minas Tirith.

The guy who played Lindir in AUJ, Bret Mckenzie i think, is the same elf who talks to Arwen in the caravan.

Jarl Benzon played Glorfindel in the same scene, he's just a random blond elf in the backround

ja33 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:23 pm

thanks for that info Alatar, I didn't know that Glorfindel was seen in RotK, even in a non-speaking role...

@Hill-Troll, why is it naive to think that Glorfindel would be there ? I'm not a Tolkien expert by any means, but GW, Wikipedia and many other Tolkien-info sources list Glorfindel as being part of the White Council. And both Glorfindel and Erestor are specifically mentioned in the FotR White Council meeting (as Alatar mentions above). And GW's 'Fall of the Necromancer' Sourcebook includes Glorfindel, as well as Erestor, Cirdan, Arwen, etc. as all taking part in the attack on Dol Guldur. If you have knowledge counter to this, please share, as I am unaware of why it would not be possible for Glorfindel to be there - thx

I guess I was just hoping for a larger scale battle at Dol Guldur, especailly to see those other characters, even if I only had that hope because of the GW sourcebook - oh well...

Draugluin · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:33 am

Glorfindel had never been mentioned before in the movies, so it would be kind of weird to have a seemingly random elf show up with Elrond. GW had no effect on who is included in the movie. The only thing I was disappointed in with that scene is that Celeborn wasn't there.

Alatar of Rhun · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:58 am

Like ja33 I was hoping for a High Elf/Lorien army fighting the orcs while the White council took car of the Necromancer and Wraiths.

I had hoped that since Glorfindel is mentioned in the book as ''one of the few in Rivendell that could ride against the nine'' that we could have see him in 1 of the movies.

Wise Old Elf · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:49 am

Personally, I think the Dol Guldur scenes were perfectly executed, acted and edited. There was no overuse of special effects, other than Sauron's eye being rammed down our throats a second time, and the piece was subtle in conflict rather than being an all-out war, which would have spoiled the film completely. We already have two hours of five armies battling one another, we didn't need another five minutes of it from Dol Guldur.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:10 am

The way the wraiths were done was amazing. That scene alone was worth the price of admission.

Alatar of Rhun · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:11 am

the wraiths were very cool would really like to see a mini version.

But there was still the potential for an expanded battle. Elrond and Galadriel hardy would have travelled to the enemies lair without some form of escort!

Coenus Scaldingus · **Joined:** Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:14 am **Posts:** 1121

Alatar of Rhun wrote:

Elrond and Galadriel hardy would have travelled to the enemies lair without some form of escort!

Have you seen them in action? They don't need an escort. Galadriel would just have witch-slapped (tm) her way through legions of orcs. Had she been at the actual BotFA, the whole thing would have been over in minutes.

Alatar of Rhun · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:37 am

would have been a shorter movie in that case :lol:

battle 1 Sauron gets his bottom kicked and does a runner
battle 2 dwarves decide to go home
battle 3 Azog & orcs get spanked by Galadriel :rofl:

Gene Parmesan · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:45 am

It was fine for the purposes of the film. Adding more characters would have been convoluted

orc-archer · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:45 pm

Gene Parmesan wrote:

It was fine for the purposes of the film. Adding more characters would have been convoluted

I completely agree, the movies have enough characters as it is.

Hill-Troll · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:07 pm

ja33 wrote:

thanks for that info Alatar, I didn't know that Glorfindel was seen in RotK, even in a non-speaking role...

@Hill-Troll, why is it naive to think that Glorfindel would be there ? I'm not a Tolkien expert by any means, but GW, Wikipedia and many other Tolkien-info sources list Glorfindel as being part of the White Council. And both Glorfindel and Erestor are specifically mentioned in the FotR White Council meeting (as Alatar mentions above). And GW's 'Fall of the Necromancer' Sourcebook includes Glorfindel, as well as Erestor, Cirdan, Arwen, etc. as all taking part in the attack on Dol Guldur. If you have knowledge counter to this, please share, as I am unaware of why it would not be possible for Glorfindel to be there - thx

I guess I was just hoping for a larger scale battle at Dol Guldur, especailly to see those other characters, even if I only had that hope because of the GW sourcebook - oh well...

Glorfindel or erestor or anyone like them has never been mentioned in the movies, so it seemed obvious to me.

Lhosseth · **Joined:** Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:51 pm **Posts:** 72

ja33 wrote:

@Hill-Troll, why is it naive to think that Glorfindel would be there ? I'm not a Tolkien expert by any means, but GW, Wikipedia and many other Tolkien-info sources list Glorfindel as being part of the White Council. And both Glorfindel and Erestor are specifically mentioned in the FotR White Council meeting (as Alatar mentions above). And GW's 'Fall of the Necromancer' Sourcebook includes Glorfindel, as well as Erestor, Cirdan, Arwen, etc. as all taking part in the attack on Dol Guldur. If you have knowledge counter to this, please share, as I am unaware of why it would not be possible for Glorfindel to be there - thx

Although he is often mentioned as one of the possible members, afaik, no where in canon it's mentioned Glorfindel was a part of the White Council He was of the Council of Elrond, but these two are not the same. (but if someone can find a canon quote contradicting this, please do so and I'll purr).
Over the years, I've come to take many fan sites (including wikipedia) who have an overall good outline, with a grain of salt when it come to the minor details (it doesn't help that it's not uncommon there are actually multiple versions of what is canon around, especially when you throw the HoME books in the mix)
GW on it's turn is putting nice sets together but does't always stick to the books either. Not that I'm complaining thought (I love the white council set personally)

What becomes the White Council in the appendixes of LOTR, is in the Hobbit still described as ''a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic"

In LOTR it's mentioned it was Galadriel who summoned the White Council, and Gandalf and Saruman had to be part of it, for she wanted the first to lead it, while the second was eventually chosen the leader. (Elrond is actually never mentioned as a part of the White Council here, but it makes sense to have him in too).

Last bit of info on the White Council members is Silmarillion stuff and we all know PJ is not going to burn his hands on that one:

Quote:

'and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunir. And Curunir (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old.'

This does make it highly possible for someone like Glorfindel to be part of it, but it's not confirmed.

This all being said, movie-wise it makes no sense of bringing in a new character at this point, while the three White Council members where perfectly able to handle things themselves.

Pindergorn · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:55 am

Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Alatar of Rhun wrote:

Elrond and Galadriel hardy would have travelled to the enemies lair without some form of escort!

Have you seen them in action? They don't need an escort. Galadriel would just have witch-slapped (tm) her way through legions of orcs. Had she been at the actual BotFA, the whole thing would have been over in minutes.

Not necessarily. It was pretty clear that using her powers left her exhausted.

One Orc? (the "original Bolg" jailor) No problem.

Reviving Gandalf with the kiss of life? She could barely stand afterwards.

Banishing Sauron and The Nine? That left her almost catatonic.

Taking on a legion of Orcs single handed would fall under the latter I think. A few dozen orcs she could probably handle, but she'd definitely need backup in case she over exerted herself.

Sithious · **Posted:** Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:03 pm

Alatar of Rhun wrote:

Elrond and Galadriel hardy would have travelled to the enemies lair without some form of escort!

Perhaps the escort was fighting all the spiders that were conveniently absent from the movie.

I didn't understand why 'Angmar' was spoken of with such fear that it would rise again... Wait a kingdom that uses orcs to fight the good people of Middle earth. Like What was happening in Gundabad, Moria, Dol Guldor, Mordor. Why is Angmar so special when apparently any place that The WK and Sauron choose to make camp is pretty much the same thing and equally bad news.

rumtap · **Posted:** Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:03 am

I was really looking forward to this scene and was not disapointed.

Definately my favourite scene of the movie, Galadriel was awesome, go the Aussies!

SPOILER - BOTFA - White Council - SPOILER

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