Another Hurl question/clarification?

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:29 am

Lmao James. Hilarious Hurl ideA.

JamesR · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:54 am

I hope to test it today

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:48 am

My god man....Id like to as well. Lol. Fantastic.....

Frêrin · **Joined:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:50 pm **Posts:** 272

JamesR wrote:

With how the English rulebook words it there must be at least one model that charged for it to become a combat.

JamesR wrote:

So Aragorn being thrown the first time causes him to be thrown into a situation where all requirements are met.

The second time there are the same conditions: Troll A charged in the movephase and after the hurl, he is in basecontact. As you say charging and basecontact are the requirements.

By the way, do you really think the charge in the movementphase justifies the basecontact in the combat phase?

dchobbitleague · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:16 pm

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

Lmao James. Hilarious Hurl ideA.

We here at the DCHL also felt this trick was hilarious and deserved an honorable mention in our videos. We even credited JamesR for coming up with it! :-D

Fantastic find!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn6XtG1M5u0

jdizzy001 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:02 pm

If aragorn is thrown into an unresolved combat, doesn't he get to participate and throw dice? Sure if he wins all he gets to do is stand up, but since he is suddenly in an unresolved combat, what prevents him from participating?

jdizzy001 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:10 pm

allectius wrote:

I disagree with jdizzy001 about hurling away from the monster. You can even hurl the nominated model through the monster. Which will not cause a str 3 hit on the monster it self but will cause an additional str3 to the nominated model. The movement it self is measured as if the nominated model moved in a straight line.

/tweet! Foul! page 63 of the rules manual. Step 4 of Hurl says "All models hurled through (except the hurling monster... ...Suffer a str 3 hit.

The rules state that the hurling monster can not be used as a means of incurring an additional str3 hit to the hurled victim.

However, in rereading the hurl rules I will withdraw my early comment about measuring anywhere from the hurling monster's base. Step 1 says choose a direction to hurl the victim. Step 2 is used to determine how far the victim is thrown, and step 3 says Move the victim in a *straight line* equal to the hurl distance. So, yes you could throw the victim to the opposite side of the hurler (inflicting no extra dmg per step 4) however, you would "lose" 2ish inches from the monster's base when you throw the victim.

It appears that the victim may be hurled any direction measured from where the victim is located when he is grabbed.

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

The Hurl rules have recently been clarified by the rules writers on the GBHL Facebook page. In short, you Hurl the target model from the point the two models were touching and it can't move over the monster's base, essentially giving the monster a 180 degree Hurling arc.

This rules errata that has come straight from GW is available in the GBHL Community FAQ if anyone is interested:

https://attachment.fbsbx.com/file_downl ... ktq0qrujOI

I'm well aware that many people won't agree with this and there is, of course, no obligation for you to use this (unless attending a GBHL tournament) but it's worth reiterating that this ruling came direct from the GW rules writers and is how the rule will be presented in the next Official FAQ so I thought people may be interested to see it.

As for Hurling into combat with another monster, common sense wins for me here. The rules are CLEARLY not intended to be used like that and I don't think you can Hurl a model into a new combat (with another monster or anything else). Entering combat is a voluntary act done by one of your own models into another model. That's not what happens with Hurl, the Hurled model will hit the second monster and be placed Prone beside it, but not in combat. There's lots of examples of this, it's the same with Sorcerous Blast, you can't Blast someone into a combat. Similarly, if a cavalry model charges an infantry model and wins the combat it knocks it down and forces it to back away an inch, if that inch of back away movement causes it to hit an enemy model surely no-one would claim that they'd be in combat?

Agonising over the exact working of how models 'charge' or 'fight' or 'move into combat' isn't helpful here. The rules aren't written to be read as such and the intention behind the rule is clear enough to avoid any ambiguity IMO.

dchobbitleague · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:29 pm

Just wanted to add to Dr. Grant's post. The point of the videos we produce is to encourage people NOT to play these strategies. We strongly agree with Dr. Grant and the GBHL that this is completely against the spirit of the rules and we think no one should actually perform these tricks even if technically legal. Hence the title of the videos and the nature of the character asking you to do them. You should not take advice from That Guy.

We would also ban this trick from official DCHL tournaments.

JamesR · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:28 pm

I've never used this tactic, although I plan to in a friendly game. And I do appreciate the shout out lol.

Tbh this is the kind of thing that frustrates me greatly. With RAW this is a perfectly legal option, I agree it's certainly not RAI, not even close; BUT we see all the time where Rules like Leggy (prior to FAQ/Eratta updates) have been abused by RAW over RAI, with IMO just as compelling if not more so cases made against that

JamesR · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:43 pm

Also just wanted to throw out there this is also better, again IMO, than swapping out models hand weapons for axes etc. This will come into play far far less, and isn't going to have the widespread impact that can

Jobu · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:58 pm

The number of models killed by hurl is probably no different than the monster fighting multiple opponents. It is only a S3 hit ( except for the unfortunate hurled model ) which, in the vast majority of cases, needs a 5 to wound. These monsters have a much higher strength than that and are giving up a higher likely hood of killing to simply knock down models.

There is nothing OP about hurl, it actually made monsters worth their points in a game, and a threat, which the monsters should be. The cheapest monster is 80 points, any simple captain with a little support can take him out with heroic strike, simple fighting or the old faithful, shooting it.

Remember when everyone called monsters arrow magnets and not worth the points because they die before combat? Nothing has really changed from that standpoint. A lot of armies can even go 50% bows or the FAQ allows them to not count towards the bow limit, and can be 100% bows.

EDIT: Post edited for antagonistic language.

PM sent.

Dr Grant

jdizzy001 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:14 pm

I'm first in line to say hurl is way too powerful. However, I have come to accept that my opinion is wildly unpopular. Thus I have also learned to accept that every army I build from now on will have to include some sort of a magic user to counter monsters. *BUT,* I digress, that is not the point of this thread.

I would like to add, I find it funny, the differences between a card game and a minis game. In the card game forums I follow, the rules are the rules and the only way to play a card game is RAW and anything other than RAW is WRONG. However, in this minis game we are now discussing the RAI vs RAW and how RAI is actually more important to the spirit and longevity of the game as opposed to RAW. Very fascinating.

legion · **Joined:** Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:58 pm **Posts:** 205

I have never personally felt that Hurl is too powerful. In fact, before it, Monsters sucked! I still easily take down monsters nowadays but I do agree that "playing catch" with a model is a bit silly.

This new update to Hurl really doesn't change much. I still think I can use Hurl to it's full potential even with it restricted to 180 degrees.

Frêrin · **Joined:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:50 pm **Posts:** 272

legion wrote:

This new update to Hurl really doesn't change much. I still think I can use Hurl to it's full potential even with it restricted to 180 degrees.

It does change it! Just attack the monster in the back and place two models to surround it so that it can not move (but not in basecontact). If it is a monster without might no hurl this round

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

dchobbitleague wrote:

The point of the videos we produce is to encourage people NOT to play these strategies. Hence the title of the videos and the nature of the character asking you to do them. You should not take advice from That Guy.

Ha, yeah I think it's pretty clear the videos are satire, I watched the Angmar and Durin's folk ones last week and they were good fun. Anyone who thinks you're making serious tactical suggestions rather than poking fun at over-competitve players has clearly missed the idea!

dchobbitleague wrote:

We would also ban this trick from official DCHL tournaments.

See this is the interesting thing, it's not banned at our events, it just never happens because no-one has ever suggested it's permissible within the rules. We have a few very competitive players over here and I've never known of this issue coming up in any of our events, by my reading of the rules (and it would seem that pretty much the entire UK scene agree) it's simply not possible.

Also, it's off topic but huge congrats to whichever of you made the Lakwtown board, it's absolutely incredible and by far the best of it's kind I've seen.

JamesR wrote:

Tbh this is the kind of thing that frustrates me greatly. With RAW this is a perfectly legal option, I agree it's certainly not RAI, not even close

This is what fascinates me about this hobby. As far as we see it over here, it's not even conceivably a legal option so it never comes up. I find it amazing that two different groups can interpret the same passages in such completely different ways (particularly given it's the same language!) but that's part of what makes this hobby so interesting and engaging. My Heroes are just relieved they're not on the other side of the Atlantic being tossed about all over the place :-)

JamesR · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:30 pm

But Dr Grant if your poor heroes are tossed across the Atlantic by some poor luck our rule-set will allow for them to be hurled right back lol!

dchobbitleague · **Posted:** Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:44 pm

Dr Grant wrote:

dchobbitleague wrote:

We would also ban this trick from official DCHL tournaments.

See this is the interesting thing, it's not banned at our events, it just never happens because no-one has ever suggested it's permissible within the rules. We have a few very competitive players over here and I've never known of this issue coming up in any of our events, by my reading of the rules (and it would seem that pretty much the entire UK scene agree) it's simply not possible.

We have never seen this happen either and we have many competitive players. However JamesR's arguments were convincing enough to see it as a loophole in the rules. This is the same as the Taskmasters stacking before the FAQ's. No one ever did it, but we recognized that it did exist, and therefore it was banned. We just prefer to set the ground rules before it ever occurs, even if it most likely never will.

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

JamesR wrote:

But Dr Grant if your poor heroes are tossed across the Atlantic by some poor luck our rule-set will allow for them to be hurled right back lol!

Every cloud :rofl:

dchobbitleague wrote:

We have never seen this happen either and we have many competitive players. However JamesR's arguments were convincing enough to see it as a loophole in the rules. We just prefer to set the ground rules before it ever occurs, even if it most likely never will.

Yeah there's no harm in covering yourselves, we've done this with a couple of things in the Community FAQ. There's a couple of ridiculously pedantic and obvious grey areas that a few isolated people tried to exploit and we out them straight in there to just make sure it can't happen at any events.

Anyway, whatever works for you guys, it's your league after all!

Frêrin · **Joined:** Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:50 pm **Posts:** 272

Still think it is very questionable even RAW

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