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 Post subject: Re: RotK film-taking of Osgiliath
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:50 pm 
Kinsman
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The average audience is more important for the film than the tacticians. This explains why Rohan sounds the horns, dresses its ranks and waits patiently for the Orcs to get organised before charging. In the books they smashed into the Orc siege lines under cover of darkness, exploiting their success as the sun rose. Faramir's tactics were cinematic, not realistic. In reality they would have blocked access to the shore with an abatis (piled branches and tree trunks, the forerunner of barbed wire) or piled rubble. Osgiliath had been fought over for years so Orcish raids by boat would not have been unknown.

With regards to attacking the Mumakil, note that in the film and book the infantry were falling back between the Oliphants to regroup. If Theoden had allowed this to happen then they could advance behind the Mumakil to the smashed gate and pour into the city. Better to engage them at a distance and allow the soldiery of Gondor to man the walls again (most had fled to the second level) and sally forth. Of course his blood was also up, so rational thought may have been a little thin on the ground!
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 Post subject: Re: RotK film-taking of Osgiliath
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:22 pm 
Loremaster
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I agree with that one...
Imagine for example if they had led Osgiliath not like this in the film...
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 Post subject: Re: RotK film-taking of Osgiliath
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:27 am 
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Cut off the the speartip, surround and destroy, though we do see very few shield walls, even in Helms deep with the withdrawl into the keep. Though Faramir is no Boromir.
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 Post subject: Re: RotK film-taking of Osgiliath
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:37 pm 
Loremaster
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Faramir's tactics at Osgiliath don't make any sense, they're (as has been mentioned above) only there for the cinema. They'd probably have destroyed the Great Bridge completely, laid out an (above mentioned) abatis, and stood behind some stone breastworks pouring arrows into the Orcs as they tried to get through the abatis. Then, when they get through, (when there aren't many left) let them charge up the breastwork and cast them off with spear- and pikemen.

The doomed charge is 1) another thing for drama 2) just an attempt to regain his honour, and that of his men, which was then thought more important then life and 3) following Denethor's orders. There is and can't be any military sense in it.

The Rohirrim charge can be explained in three ways: 1) Theoden was in a berserk rage, and didn't think, but just charged at everything.
2) As said above, he didn't want to give the Witch-King time to restructure his army, and grasp victory from defeat.
3) 6000 cavalry in a rubble-strewn city doesn't work.

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 Post subject: Re: RotK film-taking of Osgiliath
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:59 pm 
Craftsman
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Since when has ANY movie shown a consistent set of reasonable tactics? Like almost never.

As for the battle for Osgiliath, I think Faramir's plan MIGHT have worked if there were fewer Orcs in the assault. With the steady stream of Orcs pouring into the fray, he couldn't make headway and got surrounded.

As for the Charge of the Rohirrim vs the Mumakil, the problem was Theoden couldn't retreat into Minas Tirith as the first and second tier (if I'm not mistaken) were already taken and held by Orcs and Trolls. Trying to ride into the city would have failed as badly if not worse than Faramir's completely idiotic straight forward cavalry attack against the Orc-held Osgiliath. Also the main gate was down so the Mumakil (which seem to be as fast as the Rohirrim) would have simply entered through the main gate while the Rohirrim were trying to fight their way through to join the Men of Gondor.

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 Post subject: Re: RotK film-taking of Osgiliath
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:28 pm 
Elven Elder
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That's why the book is so far superior. Faramir's plan makes sense, let the first assault go through, they get surrounded and slaughtered while the rest are held off by Faramir and his men. Then the defenders get some reinforcements and drive the enemy back into the river. The only thing was, the orcs had more boats than they thought, so the tactic didn't work because the defenders on the beach were overwhelmed before the plan could actually work.

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 Post subject: Re: RotK film-taking of Osgiliath
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:56 pm 
Kinsman
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In the books Faramir was overwhelmed by sheer weight of numbers, with swarms of Orcs and Men coming across by raft and boat, presumably with heavier units ferried across by barge as a bridgehead was established. There was also a broad front to consider - while the marshes upriver and the width downriver meant that Mordor was channelled into attacking Osgiliath head-on, there was still a lot of waterfront to defend. Gondor already had detachments guarding Cair Andros, plus repairing the defences inland. What little cavalry that they had would have been patrolling the banks against raiders but infantry would also have been diverted to that task. When briefing Denethor he made the point that his men were inflicting ten to one casualties but still losing ground.

The film overlooks the Causeway Forts, which was the weak point in the Rammas Echor (the defensive wall around the Pelennor Fields) as it was the only practical way through the marshes without a massive detour. Cair Andros had already fallen by now and the Orcs were establishing defences against intervention by Rohan, so Faramir would have been aware of the possibility of being outflanked. The 'blasting' that was heard on the walls of Minas Tirith did not take Beregond by surprise so presumably the 'Fires of Orthanc' at Helm's Deep were also to be found in Mordor's armoury. With the walls breached there was no alternative but to retreat before they would be cut off. Faramir had held off the enemy for a while - long enough for wagons full of wounded to be evacuated and for Gandalf to go and lend a hand (WITHOUT Pippin onboard, unlike the film...).

With regards to the charge of the Rohirrim, it's easy to see why PJ set the action in daylight - 6000 cavalry piling into the siege lines where the only illumination is scattered torchlight or the backdrop of the burning city would be a bit dull! PJ could not have bothered with all the speeches and posturing before going forward but he's a slave to Hollywood. Theoden had no plans for the relief of the city - Tolkien implies that he was a bit stunned when he saw the scene before him, and only came to when the Witch King brought down the gates - but certainly most of the defenders had fallen back in fear from the outer wall to the second level. Only Gandalf, the Knights of Dol Amroth and a few others (brave or cut off by flames? Tolkien implies either option...) still defended the gate and only Gandalf stood in the actual gateway. It's interesting that the gate was not blocked off by stones or other barriers. The defenders seem to have given up on the idea of Rohan arriving and any sally forth was doomed to failure without assistance so why did they leave the gate without additional strength? The book describes Rohan sweeping away the siege lines (tents, supply dumps, catapults, etc.) but these were no longer relevant - the city was well and truly disrupted by fire and fear, and the assault troops had passed through the flame pits in preparation for entry through the gate. The arrival of the Rohirrim was shock enough for the hosts of Mordor; at the same time, the wind that sped the Black Fleet up the Anduin started to blow away the clouds from Mount Doom, and we all know how much Orcs and Trolls love sunlight!

Tolkien writes that the Southrons and other Men were kept in reserve for sacking the city (I suspect he could not trust the Orcs to restrain themselves from despoiling and looting; after all, he wanted the city for himself. The fortuitous destruction of the outer wall that so aided Rohan was by Orcs, presumably without orders). I'm not sure what the Mumakil were up to, although it's stated that some, at least. were pushing or pulling siege engines forward. There's no chance that even normal elephants would fit through the gates - Gondor did not use them and therefore would make no amendments to their gatehouse to accomodate such huge beasts. An elephant in an urban environment (especially one strewn with rubble and aflame) is useless, so Mordor would not even smash down the gatehouse to let them in.
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 Post subject: Re: RotK film-taking of Osgiliath
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:11 pm 
Elven Elder
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typhoon2 wrote:
Faramir had held off the enemy for a while - long enough for wagons full of wounded to be evacuated and for Gandalf to go and lend a hand (WITHOUT Pippin onboard, unlike the film...).

With regards to the charge of the Rohirrim, it's easy to see why PJ set the action in daylight - 6000 cavalry piling into the siege lines where the only illumination is scattered torchlight or the backdrop of the burning city would be a bit dull! PJ could not have bothered with all the speeches and posturing before going forward but he's a slave to Hollywood. Theoden had no plans for the relief of the city - Tolkien implies that he was a bit stunned when he saw the scene before him, and only came to when the Witch King brought down the gates - but certainly most of the defenders had fallen back in fear from the outer wall to the second level. Only Gandalf, the Knights of Dol Amroth and a few others (brave or cut off by flames? Tolkien implies either option...) still defended the gate and only Gandalf stood in the actual gateway. It's interesting that the gate was not blocked off by stones or other barriers. The defenders seem to have given up on the idea of Rohan arriving and any sally forth was doomed to failure without assistance so why did they leave the gate without additional strength?

1. Pippin was with the White Rider in the movie so that Faramir would see a hobbit and tell Gandalf about Frodo. The PJ realized that Faramir was supposed to have a Black Dart stuck in him, so he made Denethor crazier than he was supposed to be so that Faramir would almost die.

2. I don't think that ANY of the defenders had fallen back to the second level. Maybe the boys and the servants, but that would be it. The gate of Minas Tirith was thought to be strong enough to resist anything, they just didn't count on the WK helping it along with magic. Most of the troops were on the wall raining arrows down on the enemy (and the walls were much too high for any siege towers to work). The only troops not on the walls were the Knights of Dol Amroth, because they were mostly cavalry based, so they were the only ones in the courtyard.

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