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Dol Guldor Concept in Hobbit Movies
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Author:  Tar-Minastir [ Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Dol Guldor Concept in Hobbit Movies
Is there anything in any commentary from PJ or anyone else explaining why Dol Guldor was portrayed as it was? It seems to me that the concept was an “undead” fortress – essentially a skeleton of a fortress to match the theme of a necromancer. Just curious if this is what they had in mind.

I prefer to picture a more traditional fortress, since this is where a multi-pronged attack against Lorien, and Thranduil was launched from. It must have been a major fortress with a large army to attempt this.
Author:  Mapper [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dol Guldor Concept in Hobbit Movies
This question has been bothering me, I knew I had read/heard about Dol Guldur in the movies but I couldn't remember where.

I think the depiction as an abandoned fort is correct, I always pull out my copy of the Silmarillion or the appendices in the Return of the King when I want to examine items in more detail. Also look online at http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page and http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Main_Page to help point me in the right direction to look.

Regarding the White Council attacking, PJ did mention that he didn't want a big battle like in the Two Towers or Return of the King, he wanted to keep it small and concentrated on the characters.
Author:  DolGuldurEmissary [ Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dol Guldor Concept in Hobbit Movies
There is a lot about DG and these events that is very vague, some of it we can dissect and figure out, quite a bit of it is left to our imaginations.

What is actually known through the Appendix and Unfinished Tales helps a bit, even here there is many questions left to the imagination sadly.

A few examples here

Was Gandalf a prisoner ? we know he "snuck in disguise" and later left after finding Thrain and being given the key and map. PJ makes it out that he was indeed a prisoner but due to Tolkiens vague descriptions it's not truly known if he was eventually captured and made a prisoner, or if she simply snuch in disguise to investigate and after finding Thrain and the source of his speculation....quickly left to report to the white council.

I think the size of the fortress itself is up for question. It was probably not some truly massive fortress, but I'm sure it was a decent enough size that it would have been able to have a smallish army if need be. Perhaps the film got the size about right, it's quite large in the LOTRO mmo, PJ's seems a bit smaller than that depiction, I don't really envision it as being tiny but somewhere in mid size.

Enough that it may have had a number of walls, obviously dungeons, one massive tower that was the main one.

Looking at the films I have some gripes over some parts, I have some MAJOR gripes with GW's recent incarnation of the official army list and will be sticking 100% to open play for it.

First up while I like the designs of the Orcs stationed there, if we were to go more towards a purist viewpoint with what is known, I think it would have had mostly mordor uruks, along with orcs who fall more towards the "moria style" goblins in the fellowship. I'm pretty sure the orcs were "weaker" types from gundabad vs how they are depicted in the films...I tend to view them as mordor uruks. However I feel mordor uruks would have been present..they were sent to moria afterall, and were spotted by the fellowship.

There was 3 ringwraiths stationed there, Khamul being one of them, Tolkiens drafts for this slightly changed so it's not 100% certain if it was truly 2 or 3 nazgul but Khamul was certainly the caretaker for a time.

It's believed that easterlings would have been present at DG at times, possibly even a small number of black numenorians. The surrounding areas would have been mostly "evil wildlife", spiders wargs and bats.

The Castellans that GW invented I would say are quite fitting, in fact as cool as the lesser nazgul spirits are in the hobbit films...I think the Castellans GW came up with would be something Tolkien may have approved of if he were alive.

It makes a lot more sense when you consider how GW describes them, and how it's quite clear the "shadow cannot create it can only mock", they are not really life but basically constructs that mimic true sentient life controlled by sauron.

Both Angmar and DG tend towards more of a grim haunting undead type theme, possible Minas Morgul too. Part of the issue is also the word necromancy in Tolkiens usage of it vs the traditional classical greek perspective over the dead.

It's possible Tolkien used it as a form of evil magic in general, but it's also possible he may have intended some evil undead spirit ideas too, it was just never really expanded on or discussed in his letters as far as I know.

With that said I think at the least both barrow whites and specters should be part of the DG official list, and the basic troops should have a wider selection in general due to what facts we do know. The movie s are one thing but I don't think they should ever overide Tolkiens lore that we do know without question to have been this or that creature/event etc.

It should be more of an angmar army list "mirror" with a couple more options with the wildlife is what I'm saying...keeping with what is known.
Author:  Hodush [ Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dol Guldor Concept in Hobbit Movies
I don't have any links but as far as I understand DG was an abandoned elf fortress, I think even Thranduil may have lived there.
It likely was attacked a lot as Sauron tried to get at Galadriel as he was not exactly sure where she was. Getting attacked all the time is a good reason to pack up and move away, especially as the elven population was declining.

As has been mentioned, a few Nazgul were stationed there for many years as Sauron wanted to get them past Gondor/Rohan without raising the alarm. Eventually he had to attack Osgiliath to make a diversion for them. They were still noticed, but not enough to be blocked by an army.
So with this in mind, there would have been a small contingent based there. I would guess it to be about the size of Cirith Ungol, probably bigger.

I like the design of DG. The torture like design flows in with them trying to find out about the "Baggins" and also Thrains capture.
Author:  DolGuldurEmissary [ Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dol Guldor Concept in Hobbit Movies
DG attacked Lothlorien a few times if I recall during the war of the ring.

I can't remember exactly it might have been 2 or 3 times till eventually the elves finally went over the river and had a battle, finally throwing down DG itself for good.

Some of the websites estimate it as thousands of orcs and some others. During this time specifically, not during the hobbit events.

With that all said, the hobbit and war of the ring raises a lot of questions over DG itself. If we look at the quest of erebor from unfinished tales it's clear Gandalf indeed infiltrated DG through disguise. This alone would lead us to believe that DG itself was populated at that time, and it certainly was during the war of the ring since those attacks and final battle is canon.

Of course we are left with lots of speculation, and some hard facts too...so this can help us a little bit in figuring some things out. For good or bad Tolkien left a lot of finer ( or even surface ones ) details up to the imagination, however since we can figure out some facts with a lot of existing information, it can help too.

During the Hobbit DG was probably not that populated at that time. There is no question Mirkwood ( which is a decent sized forest and quite dense really ) had forces of the enemy. Most likely this would have probably been a mixture of evil wildlife ( spiders and wargs ) along with roaming orc bands.

Past this...DG itself may have had a small force of orcs ( probably! ), the Khamul and 1 or 2 other nazgul from time to time, perhaps some leader orcs and maybe a black numenorian or some easterlings even. Quite often we are left with complete imagination over terms like "All other manner of creatures or worse". I think this might leave some room open for evil spirits/undead types/some things along the line of the castellans GW invented...we just don't know much about the later kinds.

Today we think of necromancy from the classic fantasy idea of raising zombies and skeletons, while I won't claim 100% Tolkien meant otherwise, I'm pretty sure his use of "necromancy" was towards his religious views as in the traditional "evil magic" variety. This is because necromancy/nigromancy at times has taken over that "diabolical" medieval viewpoint...vs the classical real world divination though the dead ( so it's not actually raising zombies/skeletons rather spirits usually for a desire/future knowledge )...and it was very clear by Tolkiens own letters and so on over the years that he used diabolical and satanic towards Morgoth and the evil side of middle earth.

At the very least I believe DG would have had some kind of evil magic going on, either wights or lesser evil spirit manifestations of creatures. It simply was never really expanded on so we have to go by what we can.
Author:  GreatKhanArtist [ Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dol Guldor Concept in Hobbit Movies
If you haven't seen the GBHL Dol Guldur table showcase movie, go check it out. It's on YouTube. For more great photos of that table loaded down with minis, buy the magazine it's featured in, a fanzine called SBG magazine. You'll find more about it in the forums. Contact Dr. Grant to make a purchase.
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