I'm seriously considering starting up a War of the ring army, and im just wondering what you all think about the two armies im considering: isengard and the dwarf holds.

-To me, the armies are pretty similar. I'd have a spellcaster (gandalf/saruman) in a block of high defense, monsters to protect the flanks (trolls/king's champions), id have a front line breaker (berzerkers/khazad gaurd), possibly pikemen (uruk phalanx/vault wardens), limited ranged stuff (shortbows/crossbows), and balista support. I hear mainly that the Isengard ballista sucks, and that the dwarf doesnt compare to the avenger bolt thrower (but i think its a little better because of the higher range), so whats the deal with that?

-What varies is the heroes. The dwarves have rediculously awesome heroes (that know epic rampage) and they can actually ally stuff without it being un-fluffy. This is probably my biggest reason not to do isengard-- theres only 3 heroes i'd want to use. Alot of people don't like uruk scouts, which means i'd be getting the majority of my force from a single box (which was a reason i didnt really want to do an all easterling army).

-In a non-gaming aspect, i think dwarves would be significantly cheaper, because i wouldn't have to buy as many expensive models (2 champions for $12, which are 350 points, compared to trolls and crossbowmen... and such). I'm not sure which would look better when i paint them, but i know isengard would be easier. I also think i like isengard's models more (except i really like dwarves allying in eagles).

-Please feel free to point out any weaknesses/advantages that i haven't yet seen. :/ I know dwarves weakness is the high point cost and the reduced movement, which can be taken care of by allying hobbit militia archers and eagles. They also dont have magic, and can't really deal with magic, take floi and ally in gandalf, and take heroes to duel magicians, right? Against monsters, theres legolas. On the other side of things, what in the world can isengard ally that is fluffy? I can't see allying anything from mordor, because saruman wanted the ring for himself, not sauron. Sauron used saruman as a puppet, and saruman wasn't a really... helpful person when it came down to things, so why would sauron aid saruman? The only thing i can see remoltey being close to fluffy is Griskewaakeakanahs tackers, and maybe misty mountains stuff (just beacuse its geographically close)?

Anyway, i have 2 lists that ive made, and im wondering which do you think is more competitive, easier to use, which is easier to use at smaller points, all that good stuff:

ISENGARD
Lurtz
Saruman the White Hand
9 Companies of allied Mordor Wargs w/ Shields and Tormented seeds
5 companies of Uruk-hai Phalanx
5 Companies of Uruk-hai warband, banner bearer, Cursed armor of Udun
3 Companies of Uruk-hai scouts w/ bows
2x2 Companies of Uruk-hai w/ Crossbows (or 3 companies of Talons)
Uruk-hai Berzerkers
3x Isengard Troll Chieftans
TOTAL: 2015ish, (i have to choose between one of the two fates)
-I'd also like to use Sappers, and feral uruk-hai, but this list is already pretty expensive money wise, and im lacking the commons.
-Originally i had a formation of ballistas instead of the 3rd troll, but then i heard that they always underperform, and well trolls are awesome!

DWARF HOLDS
Dain Ironfoot, King Under the Mountain
Gimli, Son of Gloin
Floi Stonehand, Loremaster of Moria
Balin, Lord of Moria
Gandalf The Grey (allied)
4 companies of dwarf warriors + hornblower (gimli goes here)
4 companies of dwar warriors w/ shields + hornblower (balin and gandalf go here)
2x2 companies of Dwarf archers w/ hornblowers + shieldbearers
2 companies of Khazad Gaurd (dain goes here)
3 companies of Ballistas (Floi goes here)
2x King's champions
-Counterspell
Total: 2005
-I'd love to figure out how to get Eagles or Legolas in here (for mobility and monster killing).

I'm also sort of confused about the whole putting wizards into combat units things. I see alot of people put radagast and such in combat units (and legolas, who isn't really that sturdy), and i just wonder how that works out when the enemy can duel you and kill you easy. Obviously its safer than leaving the dude out in the open, or with a small archer unit, but... how can you avoid having your 200 point wizard killed off in a second, expecially wizards like radagast that give bonuses in combat (which encourages me to get him in combat). Is it the high defense that protects them? Saruman can be in a D8 unit, and Gandalf can be in a D8 or a D10 unit (depending if someone uses Epic Defense or not).

Anyway, please help me make my decision. I've done alot of the research, but... i still need to know more.

Man you really thought this out I like painting my dwarf figures,they seem easy(not sure if this is a plus for you i just started.) I have 55 dwarfs so far with Gimli and 8 Iron Guard. Cant say anything about Isenguard other then their models look great. I will probably go with MORDOR for the Nazgul. Plus Sauron and they still have trolls and catapults.

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"When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer."

Before I say ANYthing else, for the love of all that is loving, get rid of those despicable hornblowers! Musicians are worse than useless in WotR. 15 points for a single inch of movement. Yeah, you get to convert them, but if you fancy tournaments, you have to try and use GS or LotR bits to make the horn and there aren't that many horns about. Removing the three horns from your list gives you an extra 45 points and more bodies are far more useful.

Second thing, drop some of the heroes and add in some more companies, particularly to the Khazad Guard. 5 Epic Heroes at the points costs that they are in 2,000 points is too many when you have high cost companies. Gandalf alone is worth 5 Warrior companies. Balin is a keeper, you seem to want the magic, so keep Gandalf as well and then you can choose between Floi and Dain. I would recommend Floi as he is cheaper and has his very useful ability. Dain is 200 points and you need those for more bodies in this list. Khazad Guard have D7, but that doesn't count for as much as you'd like it to. A round of shooting from 2 companies of Wood Elves can see 4-8 die (from personal experience). NEVER have any unit that isn't indomitable or ambushers with less than 3 companies. For weaker armies, this is 4 and sometimes 5.

Next: sod the Dwarf archers. Sculpt cloaks on or trade them off for rangers. Dwarf rangers get +1 shoot, -1D, get throwing axes and an extra 6" range for 5 points more. They are much more useful as a shooting unit and can devastate with throwing weapons just before combat, where their decent fight value and not poor defence will help them out as well.


Making these changes gives you: 420 points from removing characters and hornblowers, uses up 70 points to add in more Khazad Guard and upgrade archers into rangers. This gives you 350 points to get Eagles/Legolas/more Dwarfs.

That's just my comments on using Dwarfs. I haven't had experience with the Isengard list, but 3 Troll Chieftains a bit of a points sink. Consider reducing one or two of them to ordinary Isengard Trolls to save a few points for elsewhere.

Ultimately though, your decision should factor in (majoritively) which models you like best, which you shall find most fun to paint, which you will like the look of most when done, which are you least likely to get bored of and whether you're play style is a defencive "less-movement, less death" or an aggressive "let's whether the storm and get to grips with the foe" manner. You say that you like the Uruk-hao miniatures more so that's a big plus for them, but you may get bored quickly as they are all "dark armour, little bit of skin, odd bit of leather" and in large amounts. Having said that, the dwarven plastics aren't all that great. A lot of features blend into each other and so where the beards stop is often dictated more by where your paint stops than anything else. There are metal dwarves though and you will get more variation with your painting. So, both have ups and downs, it's just working out which ones have advantages that outweigh the disadvantages more...

Good luck!

1. Someone suggested dwarves as being the only army worth taking hornblowers on, so i did. I suppose ill get rid of them.

2. Someone said that the dwarf archers are better than the rangers for advancing and keeping territory, and theyre pretty decent in CC too. They come in the same box, so i went with them. The rangers are cool, but for sake of saving money i went with the normal archers (i do think the throwing weapons are cool). Originally my list called for Ered Luin rangers (is that what theyre called), because ambushing 2h-weapon users with throwing weapons was cool, but i dropped them because everyone says theyre not worth the points, and that i should go with drar's hunters, even though i think they should be used for 2 different things.

3. Im assuming you're getting rid of Dain and Gimli? One of the reasons i really liked dwarves was the epic rampage + 2 handed weapons, with the possibility of getting a bane in there too. and that gives me 420 points to buy... characters? That seems, like im just replacing Dain with legolas, or gwaihir. If i went with legolas which unit should i put him in?

As for adding more bodies, i saw someone say that they liked units of 4, so i went with it. I suppose i could take companies of 3 archers. But more bodies = more money. Heroes are sorta cheaper.

4. With the troll chieftans, i thought it was worth being able do at the double, and do heroic actions for 50 more points, and theres +1 fight and its very hard to kill, but i can see where 4 trolls may be better than 3.

5. I'll pick up a copy of battlehosts on saturday, when it comes out, to give me some further ideas. I just don't want to blindly rush into getting another army (lizardmen, and fantasy as a whole never worked too well for me. Too many arguments over what legal movement was, and combat res takes way too long, which is why wotr looks fun). The dwarf list, and army, seems stronger to me, and cheaper, but the models are really weird.

6. Would putting amdur in a unit of berzerkers be good? He's expensive... and completley unfluffy, but berzerkers with rampage seems good. Ultimatley, i think i really only want to go with things that are fluffy.

If you want fluff then I'd get some Isengard orcs. Their cheap(in point cost and in reality), they have the Mob rule which can be very useful....

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No one sculpts Chuck Norris - Chuck Norris miniatures are created by acts of God.
~ Dagorlad

No offence to that person, but they are likely the only one that thinks so. They are the most overpirced thing in the game (include non-named casters). +1 movement isn't all that helpful. If it added to charge distance as well, then it may be worthwhile.



Quite the opposite: rangers have better range, so fulfil the archer capacity better, they have throwing weapons automatically, so are more efficient in combat (throw axes, then charge. Very effective). Their downsides are 5 points more expnsive and 1 less defence, but their defence is as good as the heavier troops of the other armies still! As for the money and buying them, I understand completely, but either I forgot to suggest it or you missed it, you can just use a bit of greenstuff to give them cloaks/hooded cloaks, paint the scalemail as leather/brigandine and instant upgrade



I sure did (but only as they were the ones left over, lol), however you could keep one(probably Gimli) and remove Floi instead, but then you get less points to spend elsewhere. I agree, but you don't want to overload on characters and you can choose different ones to get rid of, I was just basing the suggestion on what it sounded like you wanted most. You needn't buy just characters, but you said you fancied some Eagles or Legolas and it freed up the points to do so. Also, if you take another look at my post, I suggested getting at least one (preferably two) more companies of Khazad Guard and upgrading the archers (using greenstuff or simply making it known to your opponent beforehand) into rangers, etc. If you did take Legolas, then I would suggest any that you are using aggressively, most likely Khazad Guard, which is where people seem to put him a lot anyway.



3 companies is the base for dwarfs, 4 is preferable to soak up shooting damage. Heroes are cheaper, but you get less of them, the army looks less impressive if it is 12 heroes and a couple of dozen warriors, compared to a couple of heroes and 12 dozen (I know I'm exaggerating, but it's easier to do so, lol ) and the warriors will prove more effective as the heroes would run out of hiding places eventually, so it may be a better investment...



Alternatively, you could have Isengard Trolls and ally a Mordor Troll (ruleswise, but have it modelled and fluffed as an Isengard one) Chieftain as he can do a Troll Charge, benefitting trolls within 6" or so. Also, it's best to have monsters get support, even from other monsters



Very wise plan. may as well find out all of the options first, eh? Apparently, Isengard is very strong as well, some reckon as strong as elves. Also Dwarfs are consider one of the weakest armies for some reason. I personally think it may be because they're priced very closely to elves who get a better army rule (terror instead of stalwart, which sucks for us! I'd rather have Terror tbh lol ) without the high fight and courage.



If you want a fluffy army, then no is the short answer. Otherwise, it's still likely a no because bezerkers attract a lot of shooting and so are more of a "draw fire away from other units" kind of troop. Think tough fodder, lol.

Ironically, after making a username Thorin & Co., i think im gonna go with fallen realms. I can get 1000 pts for 200$ (include khataphrakts... which are sorta expensive), and with some simple conversions i can stick with an easterling theme.

For 1000 pts I was gonna go with:
-Khamul
-Ringwraith 2 (probably knight of umbar/betrayer)
-6 Khataprakt companies
-4 Easterling Cohort
-2 Easterling Pike Cohorts
-2x2 Easterling Archer Cohort
-Chariot (converted to be easterling).

Then when i expand i would:
-Get more pikemen to take advantage of the battlehost
-More Kataphrakts
-More chariots, since theyre monsters. I'm not that big of a fan of gold trolls... which is what i see most people doing.
-Dwarf ballistas with Easterling crew, but use the Mordor siege bow rule
-Possibly a black gate theme (hense cursed armor of udun), which i would include the mouth of sauron, dark mashal, and morgul knights (which would amount to another battlehost).
-Winged Nazgul (which i hate the name... so much. The nazgul dont have wings, theyre riding a hellhawk/fell beast), probably with the tainted riding it.

Then for allies, i would either go with misty mountains (but everything good is pretty $$expensive$$) or morannon orcs + gothmog.Im not really feelin the haradrim stuff, or corsairs, and the mumak is expensive, and seems waaay to risky with the stampede rules.