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Is the list powergaming?
Yes 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
No 100%  100%  [ 36 ]
Total votes : 36
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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:57 pm 
Elven Warrior
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SO, may I conclude that Powergamers try to find gaps and holes in the rules to take advantage of them and create an unrealistic force that is puerely constructed for winning purposes :-D ?
In that case, QB's army wasn't defenatly a powergaming one.

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Raggbur wrote:
SO, may I conclude that Powergamers try to find gaps and holes in the rules to take advantage of them and create an unrealistic force that is puerely constructed for winning purposes :-D ?
In that case, QB's army wasn't defenatly a powergaming one.


Yes, I think that has clarified now.

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:43 pm 
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whafrog wrote:
Xelee wrote:
That is, powergamers play by the rules, but nonetheless make it much harder to have meaningful games.


That would include the Outrider/Gamling example then :) I think it's all power-gaming, both DM's examples and my own, and you have nicely summarized it with this statement.


I agree, but would just add that (in my opinion) powergamers normally stretch and twist the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:02 pm 
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Some do, though I have seen plenty of examples of what I would definitely term 'power-gaming' which did not twist a single rule or even merely attempt to use the most favourable interpretations of any grey-areas. Absolutely, incontrovertibly, scrupulously legal - Yet still taking far too much advantage in what is suposed to be a balanced points fight. I wouldn't want to wrongly imply that such people were cheating, they will just be upset at being wrongly labeled and their upset will provide cover for the real problem.

I think that 25-0 means that however you are going to define it, the list in question this time is definitely not it.

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:52 am 
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Xelee wrote:
Some do, though I have seen plenty of examples of what I would definitely term 'power-gaming' which did not twist a single rule or even merely attempt to use the most favourable interpretations of any grey-areas. Absolutely, incontrovertibly, scrupulously legal - Yet still taking far too much advantage in what is suposed to be a balanced points fight. I wouldn't want to wrongly imply that such people were cheating, they will just be upset at being wrongly labeled and their upset will provide cover for the real problem.


How can somone who sticks to the ruls and uses a legal army list possibly be powergaming!!! Just because they beat you all the time dosn't make it powergaming - maybe you need to look at your strategy a bit better??

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:17 am 
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Lol, nice. The 'I'm sure you are only saying that because you are losing' play.

Good one 8)

Or you know, instead of asking "how can" as if no argument was offered, you could address the actual argument offered? :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:19 am 
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This list is not a typical "power gaming" list. QB, what your opponent meant to say was, "you're too damn good and I'm sick of losing to you!"

There's no question that it would be difficult to win against that many DW w/ another 500 pt army....

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:37 pm 
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DM wrote:
How can somone who sticks to the ruls and uses a legal army list possibly be powergaming!!!


Because the rules aren't perfect, as the Outrider/Gamling example shows (even GW admits that one).
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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:03 pm 
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@DM: that's the trick with power-gaming. It's all legal, if it wasn't then you wouldn't find them in tournaments. It's simply manipulating unoffical mistakes in the rules as Whafrog said.

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:01 am 
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I can say yes and no to this army being 'powergaming'. Basically you've got so many dwarfs (almost enough to outnumber some people) that it's virtually impossible for the opposing player to kill enough to win. In response you'll kill him at a greater rate (because of his lower defense). I've been outnumbered by dwarfs once, and seen someone be outnumbered by dwarfs once. Basically, you can't kill them fast enough to win. However, it isn't 'exploiting' a rule as such, so in that respect it isn't powergaming
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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:51 pm 
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But fewer heroes means fewer tactical options. That's why it's not powergaming, IMHO.
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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:49 pm 
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monaco_man wrote:
I can say yes and no to this army being 'powergaming'. Basically you've got so many dwarfs (almost enough to outnumber some people) that it's virtually impossible for the opposing player to kill enough to win. In response you'll kill him at a greater rate (because of his lower defense). I've been outnumbered by dwarfs once, and seen someone be outnumbered by dwarfs once. Basically, you can't kill them fast enough to win. However, it isn't 'exploiting' a rule as such, so in that respect it isn't powergaming


Like whafrog said, you're trading numbers for other tactical options. Having more models won't neccesarily be better.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:09 pm 
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General Elessar wrote:
It doesn't seem powergaming to me, as you were allowed the Vault Wardens.


wait, vault wardens are considered powergaming?

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:38 am 
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I think what he means is that vault wardens aren't very good, since he used them therefore it is not a powergaming list.
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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:43 pm 
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No, I meant that the Vault Wardens were an illegal part of the army list (as they're not in the Erebor army list), so the list couldn't be powergaming because it was undoubtedly illegal.

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:52 am 
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Quote:
vault wardens aren't very good, since he used them therefore it is not a powergaming list


Take that back... :-X :sad:
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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:17 pm 
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DM wrote:
How can somone who sticks to the ruls and uses a legal army list possibly be powergaming!!! Just because they beat you all the time dosn't make it powergaming - maybe you need to look at your strategy a bit better??

By that definition Powergaming wouldn't exist (ever before or now) because using an illegal list = cheating, not powergaming.

first thing googled after writing 'powergaming definition' wrote:
Powergaming (or power gaming) is a style of interacting with games or game-like systems with the aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal, to the exclusion of other considerations such as (in videogames, boardgames, and roleplaying games) storytelling, atmosphere, camaraderie, and fun. ...

Explains it pretty well. Examples: Mass Outriders + Gamling = PG, because a) that wouldn't happen and b) it's not how the rules are meant to be played and c) it's not fun.
Another example: Isengard army which maximises on Crossbowmen by using Orcs instead of Uruk Hai as the fighting unit (ie. 16 Orc Spears, 16 Orc Shields, 16 Uruk crossbows + heroes, etc.) because it maximises the army's strength while minimising weaknesses.
Yet another example: (the classic Pre-LoME case) Khazad Guard front line supported by Warriors of Minas Tirith Spearmen (without shields) with a unit of High Elf Archers (ie. using the 2 armies for their strengths and 1 for its cheapness) -> an example more optimal is actually Khazad Guard front with 2nd line of High Elf Archers with Spears and a bunch of hobbits around the flanks to maximise the model limit and hence increase the bow limit.
I could go on for hours...

Is Powergaming good or bad?
- Well... it depends. Non competitive play has no need for powerplay, so as long as you both have fun, do whatever you want, feel free to exploit or even change the rules completely at your own will.
- Tournament-wise powergaming is everyday part of the game - you cannot remove it because players who want to win will do anything in their power to win. Look at the top GT lists each year - they're all pretty well optimised to their stengths and minimised weaknesses, therefore by definition they are powergaming. However, the players using those lists have a good case for doing so - they want to win and usually it's the only way they can achieve victory when faced with other PG lists.

Overall powergaming is just part of any wargame, card game or in fact any game which isn't 100% balanced and allows you to make pre-game choices (like deck building or army building). There is a lot of cases of powergaming. In fact the term is defined so widely and so differently by every player, that any force which isn't completely themed and balanced will be considered powergaming at some point - and there is nothing to be ashamed of when someone calls you a powergamer - most of the time it just means that you're capable of making a better list than he is and usually you're also a better player.

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:23 pm 
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Very well put. :yay:

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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Here is a list I have played against a couple of times now. Without the barrow wight one could bump the numbers up higher.
EDIT:Forgot to mention, is this a power list? Or does it matter how one USES the list. Like him backing up every turn so he can keep volley firing at me with 17 orc bows.

Moria Goblin Shaman Moria 1 45
Moria Goblin Warrior Moria Shield; 17 85
Moria Goblin Warrior Moria Orc bow; 17 85
Moria Goblin Warrior Moria Spear; 17 85
Barrow-wight Angmar 1 50
Shade Angmar 1 100
Orc Shaman Barad-Dûr 1 50
Morannon Orc Barad-Dûr Shield; 10 80
The Shadow Lord The Nazgûl 1 120

66models 700pts

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Last edited by Jobu on Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Powergaming
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:05 pm 
Elven Warrior
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What's the whole pt of that ?

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