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Hero help
https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=26254		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  D0Cdeath [ Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Hero help
So after reading about suicidalmarsbars recent success at the east grinstead tournament with his good all hero army
Good army (the crips):

Gandalf in Cart
Saruman on horsey
Eorl the young
Aragorn on horsey with armour
Boromir of Gondor on horsey
It got me thinking " that's something I'd like to try!" :-D trouble is 5 pieces against my opponents 50plus pieces sounds like a game I'm never going to win . Please could I have some tactical advice , also is it possible to play a good 500 point all hero army competitively ?.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
Oh boy I am so famous.

At 500pts you can't squeeze too man big names in, but I reckon it is possible to make a hardy list at that level. The most important thing in an all hero list is that you have atleast one 'might battery' someone that can regenerate might, or just has loads of it, the 3 that pop to mind are Aragorn, Eorl, and Boromir. The twins are also good for this because they are very cheap and bring 6 might to the table. At 500 the best thing I can think of off the top of my head is:

Thorin Oakenshield with everything (but a bow) on pony
Boromir of Gondor on Horsey
The twins with armour on horses
Eorl the Young

You may notice you are missing out on a spellcaster, which IS pretty bad as it means you can get shot up, but as long as there is enough terrain on the board, you can just ride from cover to cover, and even call heroic marches to boost your movement speed.

In the turns before combat you want to ensure you are out of their charge range, but in range with yours, this is so you definitely get to charge with your chaps first. If you have a spellcaster in your list you will want to command one of your opponents models (the more pts it costs the better) towards your heroes, this means that if your opponent gets priority and moves out of charge range, you can charge everyone into that model and then call a heroic combat and send all your pieces into new fights with the enemy that now may be in range. Also commanding models towards your guys means that your opponent gets priority on the next turn, he/she may be inclined to move their army forward to try and protect their model, so you can swoop in and kill them in your move phase, without fear of being mobbed to death.

Chances are that in the first few turns of combat your opponent will be putting everything on 1-2 of your big heroes, while leaving the rest of your chaps to fight one or two a turn, this is good because it means that you can call heroic combats with your smaller guys (who are only fighting like two people) and then charge another few models and kill them hooray.

If you want to attempt it without mounted models, make sure you have got the correct amount of terrain (2/3 of the board), and even then it will be a challenge without a perfect mix of models. Thorin's company seem like the only army that can pull it off, perhaps with help from Legolas. You need models with really good special rules.
Author:  Galanur [ Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
If he got add legolas and rumil things would get pretty interesting in a fight and at range :P
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
@Galanaur: Actually Legolas and Rumil would both be huge wastes in an all hero format, all your heroes NEED to be mounted for this to work, you have a much higher chance to wound when you are a cavalry model, and thus can pull of more heroic combat. Imagine the list I posted was in that lovely position where the opponenet had priority, was too far away to charge me, but could not get all their men out of range of my charge, on my turn to move I send my 5 guys into 2 models each, and then all my models call a heroic combat, everyone of my guys gets at least 6 dice to wound with thanks to cavalry bonuses, so each of them killing two models is very likely, they heroic charge into two more models each, and kill them too. That will be twenty models killed in the first turn of combat, breaking most armies, or driving hoard armies to the brink of breaking. If Legolas and Rumil were in there I would have two less mounted models, and thus probably only kill about 12 models.

If the list was an all infantry hero list, it wouldn't be nearly as good anyway, but I agree that Legolas and Rumil would be good choices.
Author:  D0Cdeath [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
Thanks for your imput 8)
Author:  ElfLover [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Actually Legolas and Rumil would both be huge wastes in an all hero format, all your heroes NEED to be mounted for this to work

If you have the model you can use Legolas mounted and if not you can always use Legolas and Gimli on horse 8)
Author:  Damian [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
Quote:
I send my 5 guys into 2 models each, and then all my models call a heroic combat, everyone of my guys gets at least 6 dice to wound with thanks to cavalry bonuses, so each of them killing two models is very likely, they heroic charge into two more models each, and kill them too. That will be twenty models killed in the first turn of combat

All math-hammer is dependant on certain conditions being in place. In this case you are assuming your opponent has left his guys in the open with no anti-cav or anti-hero counters. You won't get 20 kills in one turn if your opponent has killed a horse or two with shooting, or has 'panic steed' or 'transfix' or is simply standing in difficult terrain, denying you your cavalry charge bonus.

I certainly don't think Legolas is a liability in a mounted list. Either on horseback or with an Elven Cloak he can snipe opposing captains, removing your opponent's ability to make heroic moves and heroic strikes (or transfix, etc), the very things that are the biggest threat to your other mounted heroes.

Here's my 750 point super sneaky foot hero list (750 because I was thinking about trying new stuff at the Longbottom Carnival next month):

Warband 1: Aragrorn, Isildur's Heir with Elven Cloak

Warband 2: The Twins with Elven Cloaks

Warband 3: Legolas with Elven Cloak

Warband 4: Radagast with Sebastian

Warband 5: Gwaihir

Everyone apart from Gwaihir has an elven cloak, and if the elves stay within 6" of Aragorn the entire force can move freely through (or over) difficult terrain. Couple that with Aragorn's free might and this force can kite all day, picking it's fights. Legolas does his sniper thing, Raddy brings really good synergy with all his spells and once any Shamens are gone 'Aura of Dismay' and the Elven Cloaks will make this force really hard to engage. Gwaihir brings speed and brutal power attacks.
Author:  JamesR [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
@Damian I do think your list is more competetive in the fact that its not so easily countered as an all Cav army that leans so heavily on that. Ultimately I think that any all hero armies have a few huge problems that are inescapable.
1. You're badly outnumbered
2. Swarm armies can throw Fury at you, suddenly your opponents just won't die.
3. Elites armies have good enough defense to tempt you to waste might just to ensure a victory in a combat or a kill
4. Enemy heroes are your bane! If you have an enemy hero (say for example a Goblin Captain) fighting you, he won't have any reservations on spending might to bring down any of your heroes, while you have to weigh might expendature carefully.
5. If your opponent fields an army of Isengard Uruks with at least 1 Shaman just cry and go home lol you're done
Author:  Damian [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
That is all true. Whatever form your all-hero army takes it is a challenge to win against a well played and well balanced force. It's still fun though. :-D
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
JamesR wrote:
@Damian I do think your list is more competetive in the fact that its not so easily countered as an all Cav army that leans so heavily on that. Ultimately I think that any all hero armies have a few huge problems that are inescapable.
1. You're badly outnumbered
2. Swarm armies can throw Fury at you, suddenly your opponents just won't die.
3. Elites armies have good enough defense to tempt you to waste might just to ensure a victory in a combat or a kill
4. Enemy heroes are your bane! If you have an enemy hero (say for example a Goblin Captain) fighting you, he won't have any reservations on spending might to bring down any of your heroes, while you have to weigh might expendature carefully.
5. If your opponent fields an army of Isengard Uruks with at least 1 Shaman just cry and go home lol you're done


Well first off (not that I am a bad loser or anything) Damian's list is 750pts, the one I posted was only 500, to boost it into 750 I'd throw in Gandalf the White on Horse because Gandalf is a beast. In response to your points:

1: The more you are outnumbered the better, the more models they have the more spread out their force has to be, meaning in one heroic march you can leapfrog in horse range of their weakest point. As you point out though it is the armies formed of elites that give the most trouble though.

2: Fury isn't actually that bad, most people now cast it with two will and one might, so if they fluff it they are bummed. All wizards have a 12" cast range can just command/sorcerous blast the shaman away from their troops long before fighting begins. Ofcourse if they have like 3 shaman's it is a different story.

3: This one I agree with, the only army that has cracked my monster list so far is Dr.Grants army of 30-ish ferals, Saruman, Lurtz, Vrasku, and a shaman. However against an all hero army you generally have enough free might with the people that will be tanking 4-6 models like Boromir and Aragorn that it doesn't matter too much (to start off with)

4: True, but yet again hero armies always have a spellcaster who can just immobilize them.

5: Not gonna lie if the Rohan strawheads can beat uruks I think the greatest blokes from middel earth can.

All that said if you actually have the correct terrain set up I am sure playing with Damian's army is as effective, but probably alot more fun. Only reason I argue all cavalry is that, even though it is circumstantial, you can realistically kill 20 models in one turn if priority goes your way and your opponent is not running away enough (reconnoitre is a good example because you will get to their half of the board first and be cornering them so if they keep running away they are not playing the objective).

Also Damian, whatever happened to taking Thorin's Company??
Author:  Damian [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
I have a keen interest in making Thorin's Company work in pick-up games, they're the reason I started collecting Warhammer Dwarfs (many years ago) and why I'm into this hobby in the first place. When I get the time to paint each one to the best of my ability they will become the core of my SBG Dwarf army. I have played a few games with them unpainted, but it's just not the same.

Here's what I'm thinking at 750 points.

Thorin + Oakenshield
Gandalf
Dwalin
Gloin
Oin
Dori
Ori
Fili
Kili
Bombur

That's all the models with 3 Attacks, plus Thorin is D8 and can shield so he can tank forever. Fili and Kili are both F5 and have a ranged attack (as does Gloin). Ori is an effective sniper and a might generator, Oin is a healer and part-time banner, Gandalf does his wizardy thang and taking Bombur means you can throw a few more dice at his spells.

It could work nicely, and I certainly don't think anyone would call that list broken or unthematic. :-D
Author:  Dr Grant [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
the only army that has cracked my monster list so far is Dr.Grants army of 30-ish ferals


*cough* 19 ferals *cough* :D

I don't have a whole lot of experience to add to the all hero thing, in the few odd games I've tried it I've been miserably slaughtered. I don't think I have the right models to make it effective.

I agree with Marsbar that I'd go with the all cav option to up your chances of picking the fights, winning the fights and killing the most enemy.

I think Legolas would be a good choice, his 3 shots a turn could help to thin out some of the enemy's missile troops to prevent them killing horses and with 3 Might, 3 Fate and F6 he's no slouch in combat either, particularly when mounted.

I'm not gonna work out points or anything but I think the following would be pretty high up on my all-hero-cav wish list

Gandalf the Grey (Blinding Light should save the horses)
Saruman the White (cos he's, y'know, awesome)
Boromir of the White Tower
Aragorn (free Might is v.handy for all hero forces)
Gil Galad
Glorfindel (just awesome fighters)

Think that's probably around 1000 points off the top of my head and should be fairly effective.

I think Thorin's Company also have a decent shot (certainly more than the Fellowship), I think there's a sweet spot around the 750 mark (as shown in Damian's list) where you take all the effective members without having to carry the weaker ones. This lower points value means your opponent has less models to fight back with and I think they could take care of themselves fairly effectively in Lords of Battle, Hold Ground, High Ground and To the Death. Recon and Domination will be tough though.

As memory serves I think you can get the13 dwarves and Gandalf for 1000 points. I think this would be less effective than Damian's 750 list but of course would be fluffier and look cooler.

As Damian says though this kind of list is all about the fun and flavour and I look forward to trying it out in a few games myself. I'm hoping to have my company painted up for the end of September and can't wait to get stuck in!
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
Damian don't forget Bilbo, he is actually pretty useful now.
Author:  Damian [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
I hadn't forgotten Bilbo, I really like ringbearers with the current version of The Ring. I've taken Gollum and Frodo to 2 tourneys this year. But to fit Bilbo you either need to take one less heavy hitter (Gloin or Dwalin) or take Bifur, Bofur and Bilbo instead of Fili, Kili and Dori.

Unfortunately, you can't fit all 13 Dwarfs, Bilbo and Gandalf into 1000 points, with no extras it comes to 1010. Take Radagast instead of Gandalf. Or, all 13 Dwarfs, Gwaihir and an Eagle.
Author:  JamesR [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
If you're going to do an all heroes list I'd spend the points for Radagast on Sleigh. Absolute beast on the charge who can heal his own mount
Author:  D0Cdeath [ Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
What about using eomer,knight of the pelennor?.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hero help
I like him but f5 means if you happen to come up against elves he is a bit of a liability.
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