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Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
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Author:  Demonforge [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
Not so sure this is the right place for this, but it seams most appropriate, so anyways...

After playing Angmar for some time now I have fallen in love with the army, its several play styles, its fluff, and it general theme. Since then, me and a friend have been trying to devise a list of units that Angmar would have had access to in the Angmar War, both canonical and non-canonical (ie. those made for games such as BFME2), and their subsequent SBG profiles, as well as other units that could possibly fit the theme, regardless of fluff. Based upon our research, the following forces were present on Angmar's side during the war, followed by the units they would have fielded, and their SBG equivalent(listed as as...), if needed.

Angmar:
- Witch King of Angmar
- The Dwimmerlaik
- The Tainted
- Gulavhar, Terror of Arnor
- Barrow Wight
- Sorcerers (as unnamed Ringwraiths)
- Shade
- Warg Chieftains
- Angmar Orc Commanders (Orc Captains, Shamans, Drummers, Taskmasters, etc.)
- Angmar Orc Warriors
- Angmar Orc Trackers
- Spectres
- Ghostly Legionaries (as Orc Warriors or Spectres)
- Wargs (and Fell Wargs)
- Warg Riders (and Trackers on Wargs)
- Siege Catapults (as Mordor War Catapults)

Mount Gundabad:
- Gundabad Orc Commanders (Gundabad Orc Captains, possibly Bolg, as well as regular Orc Captains, Shamans, Drummers, Taskmasters, etc.)
- Gundabad Blackshield Commanders (Gundabad Blackshield Captains, Shamans, and Drummers)
- Gundabad Orc Warriors (as Gundabad Orc Warriors or Morannon Orcs)
- Orc Warriors
- Morgul Stalkers
- Warg Riders
- Gundabad Blackshield Warriors
- Bat Swarms
- Wargs (and Fell Wargs)

Carn Dum:
- Commanders of Carn Dum (Unknown SBG equivalent, see below, help needed)
- Men of Carn Dum (Unknown SBG equivalent, see below, help needed)

Misty Mountains:
- Goblin Commanders (Goblin Captains, Shamans, and Drummers)
- Spider Queen
- Warg Chieftains
- Goblin Warriors
- Goblin Prowlers
- Giant Spiders
- Cave Trolls
- Warg Marauders

Rhudaur:
- Hwaldar (as Thrydan Wolfsbane)
- Rhudaur Hill-men Chieftains (as Dunlending Chieftans)
- Hill-men of Rhudaur (as Dunlending Warriors and Wildmen of Dunlend)

Ettnemoors:
- Hill Troll Chieftan, Burdhur
- Troll Chieftans (as Mordor Troll Chieftans)
- Hill Trolls (as Cave Trolls)
- Snow Trolls (as Isengard Trolls)
- Mountain Trolls (as Mordor Trolls, but would they be present? Lore suggests either way...)

Black Numenoreans
- Black Numenorean Marshals
- Black Numenorean Warriors
- Black Numenorean Knights (as Morgul Knights)

And then there are the following "theme" units we considered, which while not so justifiable by fluff, fit the general feel of the army:

- Watcher in the Water
- Dragon
- Cave Drake
- Vampires (as Dwellers in the Dark)
- Ashrak, the Spiderkin
- Druzhag, the Beast Caller
- Mirkwood Spiders

Now then, you ask, why am I posting here? I need some help. While few, there are some units that we are not sure of their possible SBG equivalents, as ell as we are wondering if the units, and their SBG equivalents, listed so far make sense. Is there anything else you would add? Remove? Change? Any other suggestions?

As for those we don't really know an SBG equivalent of, there's really only the Men of Carn Dum. Based upon their WoTR rules, we were considering them being counts as Morannon Orcs or Black Guard - same for their commanders - but were unsure if this would really work well as a representation. Do you have any other suggestions?

I thank anyone in advance for their replies.
Author:  Demonforge [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
Sorry for the inconvenience, but here are three other units I forgot to add.

Angmar
- Morgomir (as The Dark Marshal)
- Werewolf (as Cave Drake or Dweller in the Dark, unsure)

Misty Mountains
- Mountain Giants (Unknown SBG equivalent, considering Dragon with Tough Hide and Breathe Fire)
Author:  Galanur [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
1000pts shall we, just like BfME 2? :P


Warband 1
Witch King of Angmar with morgul crown on armoured steed (max stats) morgul blade
8 black numenorians

Warband 2
hwaldar (thrydan wolfbane)
8 rhudaur warriors with shield (dunlending)
4 rhudaur warriors with bow (dunlending)


Warband 3
Burhdur
2 cave trolls
10 orc warriors with spear

Warband 4
Shade
4 spectres

warband 5
Barrow wights

total: 998pts

its basically a bit of everything
Author:  Galanur [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
men of cardolland I would probably suggest easterlings with blackdragons profile. same for their captains and priests
Author:  Demonforge [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
Galanur wrote:
men of cardolland I would probably suggest easterlings with blackdragons profile. same for their captains and priests


You mean Carn Dum? Cadolan was a sub-kindom of Arnor that was loyal to Arnor. As for the Easterlings for the men of Carn Dum, its interesting, I am just unsure if it would fit. The men of Carn Dum are always portrayed as gruff, strong warrior-men, and their stats in WoTR suggest that, with their capability of getting up to S7 due to their Berserk rule (average S5), hence why we were thinking stronger, but still militaristic, units like Morannon or Black Guard for their stats.

Galanur wrote:
1000pts shall we, just like BfME 2? :P

Warband 1
Witch King of Angmar with morgul crown on armoured steed (max stats) morgul blade
8 black numenorians

Warband 2
hwaldar (thrydan wolfbane)
8 rhudaur warriors with shield (dunlending)
4 rhudaur warriors with bow (dunlending)

Warband 3
Burhdur
2 cave trolls
10 orc warriors with spear

Warband 4
Shade
4 spectres

warband 5
Barrow wights

total: 998pts

its basically a bit of everything


This is a nice list, and one I'd have to try some time. However I wasn't exactly looking for a list, at least at this time. I guess I wasn't so clear on that. I am more asking for advice of what and how you would run certain units that don't have SBG profiles as counts-as versions of another unit.
Author:  Galanur [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
Demonforge wrote:
Galanur wrote:
men of cardolland I would probably suggest easterlings with blackdragons profile. same for their captains and priests


You mean Carn Dum? Cadolan was a sub-kindom of Arnor that was loyal to Arnor. As for the Easterlings for the men of Carn Dum, its interesting, I am just unsure if it would fit. The men of Carn Dum are always portrayed as gruff, strong warrior-men, and their stats in WoTR suggest that, with their capability of getting up to S7 due to their Berserk rule (average S5), hence why we were thinking stronger, but still militaristic, units like Morannon or Black Guard for their stats.

Galanur wrote:
1000pts shall we, just like BfME 2? :P

Warband 1
Witch King of Angmar with morgul crown on armoured steed (max stats) morgul blade
8 black numenorians

Warband 2
hwaldar (thrydan wolfbane)
8 rhudaur warriors with shield (dunlending)
4 rhudaur warriors with bow (dunlending)

Warband 3
Burhdur
2 cave trolls
10 orc warriors with spear

Warband 4
Shade
4 spectres

warband 5
Barrow wights

total: 998pts

its basically a bit of everything


This is a nice list, and one I'd have to try some time. However I wasn't exactly looking for a list, at least at this time. I guess I wasn't so clear on that. I am more asking for advice of what and how you would run certain units that don't have SBG profiles as counts-as versions of another unit.



yea my bad on cardolan lol

Unless you wanna make carn dum uruk hai stats, they would be uruk type of units though...black guard its S5 though.... still isengard uruks would fit better, ever for berserkers or ferals as the berserker kind of man...
Author:  Demonforge [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
Galanur wrote:
yea my bad on cardolan lol

Unless you wanna make carn dum uruk hai stats, they would be uruk type of units though...black guard its S5 though.... still isengard uruks would fit better, ever for berserkers or ferals as the berserker kind of man...


Its Ok. There's so much stuff in Tolkien lore I can see how hard it might be to keep it all straight. As for Isengard Uruk stats, that might not be a bad way to do them. We didn't think of that. That might be a good way of doing it. Thanks. I'll have to run it by my friend. The only reason we thought Black Guard was because of their WoTR stats, which could get them to inordinate levels of strength. But then, no non-hero man gets to S5, so I can see how its odd...

Otherwise, do you like the counts-as for everything else (that needed it)? Or is there anything else you'd change? Also, do you think Mountain Trolls would be anywhere near Angmar? This was a discussion of debate between me and my friend, as we were unsure and could find no information supporting either side o the argument.
Author:  Alatar of Rhun [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
Why not use the Dunlending rules for men of Carn Dum?
I think they would suit better as they have a Viking style look to them
Author:  Galanur [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
hes using them for rhudaur (which is the perfect themed on that matter)

About Mountain troll... hmmm I dont think so, those are southern kind of breeds... although burdhur is a mountain troll (and similar profiles with cavetrolls anyway)

I do look myself very suspicious about snow trolls, they are smaller than normal trolls and could run almost as fast as an horse, to even recorded to be able to outpass em at times though...
Author:  Alatar of Rhun [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
Galanur wrote:
hes using them for rhudaur (which is the perfect themed on that matter)


oops missed that :oops: Why not try the rules for Khandish warriors without the Chariot options. TYhis would keep them on par with rhudaur and open the option for light cavalry
Author:  Demonforge [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
@Alatar of Rhun

Khandish...could work...I might have to try that. However a Khandish Warrior's lack of S4, and lack of shield option, makes them harder to justify. Though opening up a Light Calvary option would be great, and the F4 is pretty nice as well.

@Galanur

Yeah, sadly here isn't much I could do there. There aren't much stats that work in such a way without going to expensive heroes like Cave Drakes or Dragons with Fly, at which point the other stats are all out of whack, as is the required base size. However, they were larger than Hill Trolls in the game, which based upon the fact that Cave Trolls are used as Hill Trolls in SBG (as Angmar fielded plenty Hill Trolls, which is why they have access to the Cave Troll as one of their units: to be a substitute), something larger than them would be good for SBG. That, and they had shields and armor in the game...hence my choice of Isengard Trolls. I guess I could be liberal with my use of Barge, as to represent their crashing speed...

Also Burdhur is a Hill Troll.They are smaller than Mountain Trolls (which rival Olog-Hai in size and strength). So many different troll breads...they get a bit confusing at times...
Author:  andy_son_of_richard [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
There's an old WD article that you may find useful- issue 305 has profiles for angmar armies, including warriors of carn dum (basically men of the dead painted up to be human)

Some of the units are quite interesting such as the 'duskwraith' that are essentially a weaker version of a ringwraith that the witchking can draw will points from. Or my favorite, a 'Revenant' basically a ghostly captain that produces a ghostly warrior with every successful kill! :D

If you want I could try and scan a copy to send you?

Andy
Author:  Demonforge [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
andy_son_of_richard wrote:
There's an old WD article that you may find useful- issue 305 has profiles for angmar armies, including warriors of carn dum (basically men of the dead painted up to be human)

Some of the units are quite interesting such as the 'duskwraith' that are essentially a weaker version of a ringwraith that the witchking can draw will points from. Or my favorite, a 'Revenant' basically a ghostly captain that produces a ghostly warrior with every successful kill! :D

If you want I could try and scan a copy to send you?

Andy


That would be very helpful if you could. Still, for less casual games I would probably need to use units like the Carn Dum warriors as counts as for something else. Otherwise, I'd love to see those profiles and see if some of my friends would let me use them in casual games.
Author:  Demonforge [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Devising a Themed Angmar Force, Help Needed
So after a ton of talking, me and my friend decided that Men of Carn Dum would be best served as Orc Warrior substitutes. We came to this conclusion basedf upon fluff. Carn Dum actually provided the majority of Angmar's force during their war with Arnor, so it would make sense that they would then be horde troops.

Additionally, we cut down the list of units I'd possibly use, and added and changed some things and what they correlated to. So know it would look like the following:

- Witch King of Angmar
- The Tainted
- The Dwimmerlaik
- Morgomir (as the Dark Marshal)
- Hwladar (as Thrydan Wolfsbane)
- Burdhur
- Gulavhar, Terror of Arnor
- Ashrak, Spiderkin
- Druzhag the Beastcaller
- Shelob
- Watcher in the Water
- Bolg
- Mouth of Sauron (still under debate)
- Spider Queen
- Sorcerers (as unnamed Rignwraiths)
- Barrow Wights
- Shades
- Castellans of Dol Guldur
- Werewolves (as Warg Chieftans)
- Orc Drummers
- Orc Taskmasters
- Orc Shamans
- Orc Captains
- Gundabad Orc Captains
- Carn Dum Captains (as Orc Captains)
- Hillmen of Rhudaur Chieftain (as Dunlending Chieftain)
- Black Numenorean Marshals
- Orc Warriors
- Carn Dum Warriors (as Orc Warriors)
- Gundabad Orc Warriors
- Hillmen of Rhudaur (as Dunlending Warriors)
- Black Numenoreans
- Morgul Knights
- Warg Riders
- Hill Trolls (as Cave Trolls)
- Snow Trolls (as Isengard Trolls)
- Vampires (as Dwellers in the Dark)
- Wargs
- Bat Swarms
- Giant Spiders
- Mirkwood Spiders
- Morgul Stalkers
- War Catapults
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