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| Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=30906 |
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| Author: | Duke of Eoarl [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Hi all, First Post here  A friend of mine loves playing High Elves/Rivendell Knights, always with Gil Galad on horse and maxed bows, he is quite good with them, as such i struggle big time when we play... What are the biggest weaknesses of this sort of army and how would i best exploit them (which force in general combats them well) ??? Any and all advice is appreciated !! Cheers !! |
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| Author: | Grungehog [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Necromancer channeled chill soul, monster hurling models through them, Mahud raiders into him on the charge, knight of umbar on FB, xbows. There are loads of options to be honest What force do you have? |
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| Author: | Tungdil [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Would be good to get information on what you currently have! |
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| Author: | Duke of Eoarl [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Mainly using morranons as core, shadow lord on FB, shade, Orc shaman and some black guard, now mentioned the troll sounds like a very good idea ! |
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| Author: | Trickrick [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
He will be low on numbers. The Shadow Lord helps protect from his bows. So why not out shoot him, try Uruk-Hai with Crossbow. With combat use two attack cheap troops, such as Watchers of Karna or Corsair Reavers. With your shade as well you should not have a problem:) |
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| Author: | Asamu [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
What points value are you playing at and what is causing problems for you in the games? Is it the heroes or the troops/bows? In general, Harad and Moria are probably the best evil armies for taking on High elves. Goblins always lose on fight value anyway, and the elves pay quite a few points for the fight 5/6. Goblin bows are cheap, they are pretty much guaranteed a huge numbers advantage, bat swarms can cut the fight value of the heroes, and cave trolls for (relatively) cheap hurling. Harad has the shooting to kill the horses, and half trolls/reavers/watchers of karna are all very good vs elves. Try fitting in a second cheap wraith (2/10/1 or so) or the Undying for more transfix to deal with heroes. I would recommend higher numbers regardless. If you are running a shade and a wraith on a fellbeast, your model count is likely a bit low. If you take a monster other than a fellbeast in mordor, go with a troll Chieftan. The defense 8 vs seven and the fate point make it last a bit over twice as long as a regular mordor troll against Str 3. But unless you are going to ~1000 points, I wouldn't take it with the Fellbeast, especially when you already have a shade. I wouldn't run many black guard, if any. S5 is nice, but it's not good enough to justify the points cost most of the time. The jump from S3 to 4 is more beneficial than from 4-5 unless the target has 7 or 9 defense, both of which are rare values. You could take 2 regular orcs for every black guard, and they will perform better because of the numbers. Try to kill the horses or dismount the cavalry/heroes before they can get in if you can (take some trackers or ally in some Harad for shooting). Hurling a model with the Fellbeast is great for getting rid of the mounts. Without the knockdown and lances, elves don't have a lot of killing power, and you should have numbers. |
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| Author: | Duke of Eoarl [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Wow ! Thanks for the help ! Generally we play at 600 pts, sometimes 750, and yeah the problem I find is if I don't take something specifically to counter the bow fire, like the shadow lord, I become a pin cushion... Plus Gil gallad heroic combating and taking out my important prices in a turn or two. Additionally sometimes thranduil is allied in with mirkwood guard, so their archery is better to begin with, but the additive of a guaranteed natures wrath makes it super difficult aswell ! Fairly new to the game so all the help is very much appreciated !! Thanks guys ! |
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| Author: | Jobu [ Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
If you are getting out shot then take a drummer to get into combat faster. Do not try out shooting the elves, waste of time and points because even the best mordor archers only hit on a 5 after a move and have a short 18 inch range and would only ever kill on a 6. Don't bother with a fell beast for the shadow lord, the extra coverage is nice but you are better off using those points on a mordor troll chieften as has been said. Give the SL a horse to keep up with the drummer. Once you are in hand to hand his fight value will keep you from winning fights so you need to gang up as much as you can, when you can not gang up make sure you have a banner for an extra dice and channeled fury going to reduce the losses. The shade should help with this as well. If you can get a hornblower. You need the extra courage after you break, protect or hide him. Bring a second generic low cost wraith as back up and for its high courage value to keep troops around. Although the dark Marshall has great bonuses and should be considered as well. Remember to play the scenario and not the player. |
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| Author: | Wan Shi Tong [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Most of the elven heroes are pretty weak against magic and once they are out of the way the high elves themselves aren't that much of a threat. Well from my experience they tend not to do well in battles of attrition despite their high fight. Any units with strength 4 and defense 6 will give them trouble after a while. Uruk-Hai, Gundabad, Morranons and the like will win you the day most of the time. As shade is nice for countering the elves fight but its not necessary to win against them if you have higher strength. As for the bows I would try to out shoot them but you should give them a target to keep them shooting and out of combat. That way you only have to fight 2/3 of the army rather than all of it. |
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| Author: | LordElrond [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Well, Gil-Galad and high elves are my go-to army, and so I know quite a bit about their weaknesses. Magic is one, as has been already mentioned. A couple of budget wraiths with maybe a couple more will each will do the job nicely, but if you want a named wrraith, go with the dark marshall so that he has a higher fight value than the enemy troops and so that his banner effect means that even normal orcs will beat high elves most of the time, so it should be no trouble at all for morannons. Skirmish cav is also nigh unstoppable if you bring them against a high elf army because you can just run away and shoot until everyone's dead. Also, always have at least some archery so that you can shoot out horses from underneath their best heroes in the first few turns, which will be useful for when they resist a transfix or you don't manage to get one off. Pure swarms tend to beat them as well, just due to the fact that after a while, Gil-Galad or Glorfindel or whoever will botch when he's surrounded and will go down suprisingly quickly. Having said this, high elf armies such as these tend to smash any 'normal' army into the ground, but will have a very hard time when tailored against with lots of magic. Hope I helped, and if you have any more questions, feel free to ask. Thanks, LordElrond |
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| Author: | Dikey [ Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Duke of Eoarl wrote: Mainly using morranons as core, shadow lord on FB, shade, Orc shaman and some black guard, now mentioned the troll sounds like a very good idea ! against Elves, the Shadow Lord is always a good pick. Not only he has good magic, but he basically nullify the bows, which are usually one of the strengh of elves army. But you may also consider the Knight of Umbar. his magic is worst, but he can take care of Gil-Galad and any other hero, expecially when mounted. Immobilize, charge, rend,kill. Morannon are also very good. Heroes aside, elves have no S4 models, so forcing them to wound on six will help. That and a shaman with a channeled fury will give those pointy-ears a very hard time. |
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| Author: | SouthernDunedain [ Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Quote: Don't bother with a fell beast for the shadow lord, the extra coverage is nice but you are better off using those points on a mordor troll chieften as has been said. Give the SL a horse to keep up with the drummer. I have to disagree with this. Wraith on Fellbeast is SO much better than a Troll Chief. Anyone who says otherwise is slightly deluded  The fellbeast moves the same speed as the knights so it will be hard for them to escape. If you take a troll, it'll never get into combat. If you're confident of not being shot to pieces, consider a more combat oriented wraith like the Knight of Umbar or Khamul. Both can match/ beat the FV of elf lords who may seek to slay them. But ALWAYS put them ona fellbeast. |
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| Author: | WarriorOfGondor [ Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
I play elves, and the worst thing i know is strenght 4 and def 6 enemies. Keep it simple lots and lots of morranon orcs a shaman and a drummer + some wild wargs or/and wargriders . A Nazgul of some sort. And fill up with named orc heroes with might 3. With attack 2 these captains can punch a bunch of holes in the elf line for you to pour through. If you are surrounded all the time it wont help if u have fight 9. You will also "out-might" him, the most important thing in the long run is to move first. |
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| Author: | Grungehog [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Orc Taskmaster is your best friend, especially with the likes of shagrat, grisnahk gorbag as might fodder spam morranons with fury a fell beast is a good idea because you just barge the mounted elves, if you charged they lose the horses then you can move on to take more off the saddle dark marshall is a good choice here as he has a high F than elves |
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| Author: | Jobu [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
SouthernDunedain wrote: Quote: Don't bother with a fell beast for the shadow lord, the extra coverage is nice but you are better off using those points on a mordor troll chieften as has been said. Give the SL a horse to keep up with the drummer. I have to disagree with this. Wraith on Fellbeast is SO much better than a Troll Chief. Anyone who says otherwise is slightly deluded The fellbeast moves the same speed as the knights so it will be hard for them to escape. If you take a troll, it'll never get into combat. If you're confident of not being shot to pieces, consider a more combat oriented wraith like the Knight of Umbar or Khamul. Both can match/ beat the FV of elf lords who may seek to slay them. But ALWAYS put them ona fellbeast. You misunderstand, I think giving the shadowlord a fell beast in this situation is a waste of points. That is what we are discussing, not some other "deluded" scenario. Giving one to the other wraiths, like the KoU or khamul not so much a waste. For the SL, If a captain/gilgalad is in with those knights as he said earlier, all the captain/gilgalad has to do is tie (they are f6/f7) and bye bye SL. They would not even have to charge. Those rivendell knight captains are a threat to most wraiths. Plus they all have S3 bows and need only a 6 to wound even an armored fell beast, and his opponent masses bows. Easy to target a FB with massed bows if it is trying to chase down cavalry, one might still need a 6 to hit with the SL but then you are leaving the regular troops open to those shots. Troll chieftain and regular mordor trolls are f7. More appropriate to fight elven knight captain/elites, and with hurl they can unseat cavalry models rather easily. Monsters get into the combat much more frequently now with the new deployment/scenarios and, I have heard from many people how "op" hurl as a brutal power attack can be. So in this case, yes the FB for the SL is a waste of points, use the shadow lord to protect the troops, use the drummer to get them into combat. Once that is done use the SL to immobilize/transfix/black dart the elites. |
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| Author: | LordElrond [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Then just don't charge the wraith at something like a Gil-Galad or Glorfindel unless he's already been transfixed or even better, compelled. Being a flying monster with 12" move, I hardly see how it's going to be difficult to keep him out of reach of the big heroes, especially if you shoot their horses out from under them first. Or you can take the Dark Marshall like I suggested earlier, and you have that crucial F6 so you're higher than the enemy troops, and everyone gets the effect of a banner which you can't catch and won't die. |
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| Author: | Jobu [ Sat May 02, 2015 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
Transfix and compelling a hero can now be countered with heroic strike. Sure the hero is blowing might but then when the hero does end up winning the combat, that move will probably result Ina wound to the evil hero. Remember what was said, his opponent has max bows, and while I agree that the dark Marshall is good, he still will not last long on a fb as an easy target of elf shooting. And mordor can not shoot its way out of a paper bag let along get rid of mounts. |
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| Author: | Wan Shi Tong [ Sat May 02, 2015 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Help me deal with High Elves!!!!??? |
I don't see why you would bring the Shadow lord for his aura support then risk him in close combat? Use him as archer cover and as a caster but get someone you are willing to loose for the knife work. |
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