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Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
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Author:  Ithillien [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:09 am ]
Post subject:  Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Hi Guys,

I was just wondering wheter LoTR is worth picking as a secondary game (I play Warhammer 40k Eldar already), it's just that the whole thing seems completely alien to me; the 40k style of play is completely different (I think).

The reason I don't want to go into a Games Workshop is because they bend their own will to make me buy it, and I find it really annoying with them trying to sell you the entire shop all the time. :-X

I think I will probably collect, just as a change from 40k, but I cannot afford to buy the rulebook and all, just to find that I find it really boring.

What's the game speed like?
Where's the focus? - Characters, the "poor bloody infantry:!:", cavalry, war macines, monsters or is it pretty balanced?
How flexible are the armies?
How do things work? - companies etc
What's the best bit about LoTR SBG?
Are there any really over powered things? - Armies, particular units, Characters, monsters ...
What are the points like? - How big do the amies easily get?

I just want to get a feel of the game from a distance, and I don't want any one revealing copyright material, but I would really like to know what it's about.

Many Thanks

Hobbit-like small person
:frodo: :sam: :merry: :pippin:
Author:  SidTheSloth [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Hi there

I'll try to answer some of your questions


Quote:
What's the game speed like?

i find it very usually depends on who you are playing with and what size the battle is (eg if you had tons of archers then the shoot phase would take ages)





Quote:
Where's the focus? - Characters, the "poor bloody infantry:!:", cavalry, war macines, monsters or is it pretty balanced?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here - but from a gaming aspect of things then I would say that its ussually pretty balanced between characters and infantry and possible a bit of cavalry
i find that war machines and monsters dont pop up quite so much






Quote:
How flexible are the armies?

IMO that depends on what armies you take, all units have different stats and, depending on which one you take, you can use different characteristics, special rules or weapons to win/lose the game







Quote:
How do things work? - companies etc

in LoTR SBG there are no companies there are warbands. Warbands are up to 12 warriors led by a hero/character, these warbands are deployed at the start of the game. [if you really like companies and stuff like that maybe you should consider war of the ring which is a bigger armied type of game]







Quote:
What's the best bit about LoTR SBG?

IMO the best part of LoTR is Painting and sculpting and converting
but if you are talking sort of 'game-wise' then IMO the best part is the general fun of the game (ie like hobbits trying to attack Sauron :lol: )







Quote:
Are there any really over powered things? - Armies, particular units, Characters, monsters ...

the super effective armies change over time as new models are made and rules are changed, but at the moment I think Corsair reavers are 'the' army to have
IMO elves are also very effective if you know how to use them properly




Quote:
What are the points like? - How big do the amies easily get?

IMO armies get big easily by: over expensive troops and expensive heros




its IMO a very good hobby and game
i hope this helps

SidTheSloth
Author:  mastermanje [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
SidTheSloth wrote:
IMO elves are also very effective if you know how to use them properly
SidTheSloth

Oh, how funny is it to see bad tacticians playing elves. Being like 'My elves are heavily armored, so let's make a Galadhrim shield wall against your Black Numenoreans', and then these Black Numenoreans show them they Are awesome, and then the elves die. Or like Wood elves used only for fighting, without anything as antiarchery-cover.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Hope you have an Lotr gaming community around where you live, if not you're going to feel very lonesome. Lotr isn't a very popular game outside the UK, so it would help if you find some gamers first before you invest or maybe some friends that would enjoy playing table top wargaming. The best part about Lotr SBG for me is the individuality of the heroes and having very small games right away when you start collecting both good and evil forces. It's possible to have a game of 10 models or even less, or game with hundreds of models fielded. Though if you have hundreds of models on the table expect the game to move very slowly since models act independently and not in a unit or squad.
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Wow, pretty tepid responses so far. I guess I'll be the first "enthusiast" to respond... :)

Ithillien wrote:
What's the game speed like?


A normal game can be played in a couple hours, depending on your familiarity with the rules. Start small (200 points or so) and work your way up, you'll soon discover ways to speed things up. More important though, games are fun whether tiny or huge. Some of the most fun games are the custom scenarios, eg Boromir, Merry and Pippin vs waves Uruk hai. Many games can have a turn limit, so it's more about strategy and objectives than just mashing two armies together.

Ithillien wrote:
Where's the focus? - Characters, the "poor bloody infantry:!:", cavalry, war macines, monsters or is it pretty balanced?


It's very balanced. You can make a viable force out of a horde of goblins, all cavalry (though you have to know what you're doing), or a small select group of heroes. War machines aren't a big part of most games, unless the scenario is specifically a siege.

Ithillien wrote:
How flexible are the armies?


What do mean by flexible? Most armies consist of 1/3rd bows (that is the max allowed), a bit of cavalry, a bit of magic, and maybe a monster. But you can make viable armies with all cavalry, or no bows, or...

Ithillien wrote:
How do things work? - companies etc


Normally you need a captain to lead up to 12 warriors in a warband, though there are some exceptions. You build your army by grouping war bands up to the point limit you've selected. Then you pick one of the generic scenarios. These scenarios might be something like, race to get the loot, or dominate the center, or control the most objectives, or who can punch through most quickly to the other side, or who can rack up the most kills.

One you get comfortable with that you can design your own scenarios.

Ithillien wrote:
What's the best bit about LoTR SBG?


The personal nature of the skirmish game makes for some epic moments, like Glorfindel the mighty Elf Lord failing to get his horse to jump a barrier and taking a wound from falling off his horse; or hobbits stoning Prince Imrahil to death; or when the game comes down to one of the Twins vs a Cave Troll, each with only one wound; or my son's specially painted grey-haired goblin who wins far more than his share of combats; or any number of whacky, exciting, or hilarious things that come up in every game.

I also like the custom scenarios and the storytelling that goes with it.

Ithillien wrote:
Are there any really over powered things? - Armies, particular units, Characters, monsters ...


On the whole the game is remarkably balanced. It's true that once you know what you are doing, certain armies tend to have advantages, but it's not overly skewed. For normal play you can have great balanced games with nearly any army.

Ithillien wrote:
What are the points like? - How big do the amies easily get?


The new war band system has changed how people thing of points, but I'd guess that most people's max game size would be 1000 points. That's plenty to fill a 6x4 board. If you're playing the generic scenarios, 500 points is a good viable start after you've fully learned the rules. This gets you around 30-60 models per side, depending on the army.
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Ithillien wrote:
How do things work? - companies etc


Since noone has mentioned this yet, I thought i would. There are two different LotR games, SBG and WotR. All of the above posts are referring to SBG. This is the original system and is a skirmish system, though you can have larger armies, and centres around models as individuals, like 40k, which in the updated SBG rules are divided into Warbands.

WotR on the other hand ids the game with formations and companies, nearly similar to WFB. With infantry companies containing 8 models, and cavalry companies 2 models, which can be stacked into larger groups called formations. This game uses WotR movement trays. Non-named Heroes (Captains etc) are upgrades for formations, whilst Epic Heroes (some of the named heroes eg Aragon, Gothmog, Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, Ringwraiths etc are place in a formation, but can move betweeen them. And monsters are seperate pieces, muckh like they are in SBG, though with 'Resistance' and 'Hard to Kill' instead of 'Wounds'.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Sbg is a great game system, everythig is very well balanced and you have alot of choice in making your armies, unlike 40k and warhammer fantasy, where you have to have a certin number of hereos,lords,core units, special units etc. In sbg your army can be comprised totally of monsters if you wish, or can be totally heroes. The new rules make it so you need 1 hero per 12 warriors, which does somewhat limit your control; monsters and elites fall under the name 'warrior' so in theroy you could have a troll chief and 12 mordor trolls in a warband should you wish it.
Author:  cal585 [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Ithillien wrote:
Where's the focus? - Characters, the "poor bloody infantry:!:", cavalry, war macines, monsters or is it pretty balanced?
What's the best bit about LoTR SBG?


I'll just answer these two (for SBG).

For the first, I'm going to say that the focus is on characters. It's not entirely surprising when the story focuses on the Fellowship. But heroes are required to lead armies and you need at least 1 for every 12 warriors. They have additional heroic stats in terms of Might, Will and Fate. Might allows you to change dice rolls or call a heroic action. Will relates to magic, magic resistance and passing courage tests. Fate is equivalent to an armour save in 40k. That's not to say that the game is based only on characters as they cost a lot more than warriors, but heroes are a lot stronger than standard warriors and able to dispatch plenty with ease. And while you can't build an army out of warriors, you can out of heroes. That said, the best armies have a mixture of warriors led by heroes, as heroes work best when they are supported or leading other troops. Cavalry are quite fun and similar to 40k in that they are devastating on the charge but can get massacred the turns after if they get stuck. But when building your army, you will generally start off with a hero as your leader. It's not so much about the unnamed commander/captains as it is in 40k.


And the best bit about SBG? Well, as others have said, the fact that it splits down to individual control means you have some really cool situations. How long can the brave man hold the door against the swarms of Orcs pressing in from outside while his friends escape out the other side? Seeing Aragorn struggling under a tide of Goblins or alternatively rising triumphant, or a single dwarf duelling a Cave Troll only to win against the odds.
I really enjoy the scenarios though. They're not as competitive as such as they tend to have different points for each side, though special rules which make up for it and provide something a straight up battle cannot. Whether it's following a story scenario such as the Hobbits trying to reach Buckleberry Ferry past the hunting Ringwraiths or Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli desperately fighting through countless Uruks to try and save Boromir, or a custom scenario like a Gondor merchant caravan trying to make it through the Harad desert.
The thing I like most about it is the narrative. Every game feels like being part of a movie, watching things happen but also having control. Heroes are suitably heroic and you get surprises like a single warrior defeating the Witch King. 40k has this to some extent, but it's the individuality of the game, rolling and moving individually rather than as a mass of dice that allows the odd defying acts to occur which make for the most entertaining moments.
Author:  Slythar [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
What's the game speed like?
SBG... fast. A couple hours to play. I'm new at SBG so my comments end here. Easy and cheap to pick up and play.
WoTR... slow. About 3-4 hours to play.

Where's the focus? - Characters, the "poor bloody infantry:!:", cavalry, war macines, monsters or is it pretty balanced?
WoTR... cheap high D infantry

How flexible are the armies?
WoTR... Mordor/Gondor most self-reliant. All can ally other armies.

How do things work? - companies etc
WoTR... Companies march in formations that must adhere to the line.

What's the best bit about LoTR SBG?
WoTR... mass army open field combat.

Are there any really over powered things? - Armies, particular units, Characters, monsters ...
WoTR... Ringwraiths and cheap D7 units.

What are the points like? - How big do the amies easily get?
WoTR... 18-25 companies would be a decent army for 1500 points so 150 to 200 figs.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Guys talking about wotr: he asks specifically about sbg in his query!
Author:  ScarpeIron [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Here's my 2cents. (LoTR = SBG) From what you wrote, the only real way you're going to get your answers is by watching a few games, and I mean a handful, being played and being played by various individuals. That's really the only way to rule out if the game is "boring" to you. With that in mind...

1st do some scouting. Is anyone in your gaming group interesting in SBG or is there a hobby shop/club that has people that play? Otherwise, as mentioned before, you'll be buying models that'll be collecting dust. LoTR is not popular as mainstream GW games. And with GW outrageously raising the price on everything it may not be wise to get GW products; if there is no other outlet for LoTR than the local GW shop you're stuck getting GW models.

Man-up and call GW and ask what day is LoTR day and if they have people that play the game. If yes, then go and watch it played. Way easier to get the feel for the game by watching people play it than sitting through their tiny demo game played by a GW staffer.

Figure out why you wish to play LoTR. As you can see from most post, those that play are drawn by it because of Tolkien books or Jackson movies. That is the "best bit" about the games for most players. Fans of the books/movies playing and "walking" within the world of Tolkien. You can read it in the responses so far. With LoTR you can be/play the characters of the book/movie and rewrite Middle Earth history.

As with every toy soldier gaming system; there are normal units, overpowered units, and fluff units that just add a spark of flavor and not much bang. You can search the forums, they did a survey among members a while back, and find which army is the strongest. Tell ya now, its an Evil army. Depending on how you play will define what units you field. You can go all "elite" troops or mix in "normal" troops with powerful heroes and/or monsters and/or no-name-generic captains. The style of which you select your troops can be based on the books or not (see below). All of which reflects in the flexibility of the army you chose.

Just to clarify a hero: Its a main character from the books (all of the books from Tolkien regarding his Middle Earth), or the movies, or its a generic no-named captain. (GW has invented a few "heroes" and monsters)

With the new system there are two "sides": Good and Evil. Within those "sides" are Factions/Army, mainly factions/armies are from different geographical areas, every Faction can ally with another Faction as long as they are from the same "side." You can field a pure army of Mordor or Rohan or Fiefdom of Gondor or Easterlings or etc..., or you can field an army mixed with Isengard and Corsairs...etc..etc... So the flexibility of the armies is pretty abundant. If you asking about if a pure army of one Faction is flexible, then yes and no. Some Factions do not have cavalry/fast units, monsters, or magic users, but they make it up in different ways. So you'll have to research that on your own if and when you decide on a Faction/Army and if you wish to stick to Tolkien or not (Harad probably won't ally with Goblins from Moria, the same as Hobbits probably wouldn't be fielded with Minas Tirith).

The game itself? To be honest there is a little bit of tactics to it, not much. Its mainly in moving and positioning your models. Though once the Hand-to-Hand phase starts it boils down to who can roll 5's or 6's the soonest. Yes, you can adjust this by ganging up on your enemy model. More attacks = more chances for success. Why is it a game of 5's or 6's? Comes down to respective stat lines. "Elite" troops can balance this out, a bit. Though again this comes down to how you play. For ...me... I "see" the games/scenarios being fought by the normal troops and a very few elites. Gives ...me... the feel that I'm fighting and drawing attention away from the Fellowship while the leaders of the "Good" are marshaling the troops and gathering the elites for the mass attack from Mordor. ((yes, I play because of the books :oops: ))

The size of the game? Again, depends on which Faction you settle on playing. Mainly a normal game is 500 or 750 points. For 500pts thats typically 2-3 warbands with 2-4 hero's (again depends on your army). Each warband has to be lead by a hero, and then the entire army has to have a hero to lead it. That hero that leads the army can be a hero that is leading a warband or it can be a separate hero (hence the wide variance: 2-4 heroes). A Rohan 500pt warband will be around 27 models whereas a 500pt Moria goblin army will be around 30-48+ models.

Oh, and yes the game does pivot on your heroes or characters. Again, for example, that could be: Strider or Gothmog or No-Name Captains or xxxx. They add the heroics to the game, that "against the odds" you read in the books or saw in the movies. The troops are important of course, but its the Heroes that make LoTR ....well, LoTR.

So, bottomline: Be a smart consumer....
Get into your hobby club and see if there is anyone that plays the game on a regular basis. Watch em play and ask questions. Go to a GW and sit down with the Store Copy rulebook and a Store Copy faction book and read through them. Make your decision off what you read here and what you find about the LoTR in your area.

Best of luck! Hopefully you'll become a LoTR'ian! ;)
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
Guys talking about wotr: he asks specifically about sbg in his query!


The reason I mentioned WotR is because I think his post indicated that he thought that WotR and SBgG are the same thing, and so was attempting to briefly explain both.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Dun wurry gothmog, I wasn't really talking about you buddy.
Author:  Leonardis [ Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Ithillien wrote:
Hi Guys,

I was just wondering wheter LoTR is worth picking as a secondary game (I play Warhammer 40k Eldar already), it's just that the whole thing seems completely alien to me; the 40k style of play is completely different (I think).

The reason I don't want to go into a Games Workshop is because they bend their own will to make me buy it, and I find it really annoying with them trying to sell you the entire shop all the time. :-X

I think I will probably collect, just as a change from 40k, but I cannot afford to buy the rulebook and all, just to find that I find it really boring.

What's the game speed like?
Where's the focus? - Characters, the "poor bloody infantry:!:", cavalry, war macines, monsters or is it pretty balanced?
How flexible are the armies?
How do things work? - companies etc
What's the best bit about LoTR SBG?
Are there any really over powered things? - Armies, particular units, Characters, monsters ...
What are the points like? - How big do the amies easily get?

I just want to get a feel of the game from a distance, and I don't want any one revealing copyright material, but I would really like to know what it's about.

Many Thanks

Hobbit-like small person
:frodo: :sam: :merry: :pippin:


DON'T DO IT!!!
I started two years ago and was addicted, I live and breath Lotr and WotR... It will take over your life... You will start with just a model here and a model there... Then the addiction kicks in... Must collect, must buy... Two years later I have amassed armies for both SBG and WOTR - now I can't stop. I've looked online for LotR anonymous, but alas, there is no help and I ended up buying more!
Be warned, it is highly addictive! :rofl:
Author:  Telchar [ Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Leonardis is half right, it's addictive, but it's a nice thing to be addicted to :D .
Author:  Ring_of_Gyges [ Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Ithillien wrote:
What's the game speed like?

While it varies with game size and experience, two hours is going to be ample for most standard sized armies. Maybe a bit faster than 40k, but in the same ballpark.

Quote:
Where's the focus? - Characters, the "poor bloody infantry:!:", cavalry, war macines, monsters or is it pretty balanced?

It's really pretty well balanced. A vast swarm of feeble Hobbits is an effective army, but so is a five model army of Ringwraiths on Fellbeasts. The game is pretty scenario heavy, so a variety of victory conditions encourage well rounded armies, but one great thing about the game is the variety of viable options in army construction.

Quote:
How flexible are the armies?

Much more so than 40k. Armies are organized into warbands of up to twelve warriors led by a hero (who might be a cheap generic captain all the way up to Sauron himself). Beyond that there are no significant limits, there is no force organization chart, no troop/elite/support distinctions, and you can ally in warbands from other lists freely. A Rohan army with allied Ents and Galadrim for example is totally legal, blending troops from three different lists.

Quote:
How do things work? - companies etc

A army is made up of warbands of up to twelve warriors led by a hero, but they are only meaningful in composition and deployment. Warbands typically deploy together, but once the game starts each model can act independently, there is no unit cohesion requirement for example. There are good reasons to stay in formation and keep groups together, but there isn't any requirement to do so.

Quote:
What's the best bit about LoTR SBG?

I love the priority system. Rather than each player taking a full turn, player 1 takes his move phase then player 2 takes his move phase, then player 1 takes his shoot phase, then player 2 takes his shoot phase, etc... Who goes first in that exchange is the result of a die roll at the beginning of the turn, so you have to plan ahead in really interesting ways.

For example, in WHFB if cavalry with a 16" charge are closing on infantry with a 8" charge the cavalry will get to charge first guaranteed. On the other hand suppose Riders of Rohan with a 10" move want to close on Orcs with a 6" move: If Rohan has priority and closes to 8" away, the Orcs can then either back up 3" (meaning Rohan can't charge next turn) or advance 6" (meaning if the Orcs get priority they can charge the Rohirrim). Your opponent might get to move twice in a row if they lose priority and then win it on the next turn. Complicating things are heroes abilities to spend Might (a non-renewable resource) to have their troops act outside of the normal turn order.

The net result is there are tons of ways a tactical situation can unfold and balancing them all is great fun.

Quote:
Are there any really over powered things? - Armies, particular units, Characters, monsters ...

There are a couple of very weak outliers (the Balrog for example is hideously over costed), but no very strong outliers. Naturally there are some better and worse models, but nothing is hugely overpowered. I play all three of GW's main games and LotR is hands down the best balanced.

Quote:
What are the points like? - How big do the amies easily get?

One consequence of models all acting individually is that the game scales beautifully. There are battle company rules for armies under fifteen models which are great fun, those armies start around 60pts and expand with experience to around 100pts. 500pts used to be very common, I feel like 750 is becoming more common. A horde might be in the ballpark of 60 models at 500pts or 80 or so at 700pts, but all hero armies of six models are viable as well. 30 to 40 models is probably a fair medium.
Author:  Ithillien [ Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Many thanks for all the responses;
I have decided to collect ... Eregion and Rivendell!

I have 2 sets of 'Warriors of the last Alliance', Elrond and Gil-Galad. I am hoping to be gaming with them soon, and also posting a couple of pictures when I've painted them.

-Ithillien
Author:  Ukfreddybear [ Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Congratulations on deciding on your initial force. May they bring you many victories!
Author:  cereal_theif [ Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
As Freddy said ... except if you are playing me please dont win ;)

Let us know how you get on.
Author:  WhoelsebutHaldir [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is LoTR SBG worth it? Why should I collect?
Always nice to have another even player!
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