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Fight Value Relevance
https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=25922		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  CrimsonStar [ Sat May 18, 2013 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Fight Value Relevance
After having played a few games I'm wondering what the point of the Fight value really is. Since it's really only used when Duel rolls are tied (as far as I can tell), is there any other time it really comes into play? One person I was talking with at a local shop said he uses house rules that add the Fight value to the Duel roll. This sounds more in-line with RPGs I've played (roll 1D20 and add Str, etc.) Can anyone provide some insight to the Fight value that I'm overlooking?
Author:  JamesR [ Sat May 18, 2013 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
You are correct on fight value, its general application is only for fights that are tied. I however, wouldn't underestimate this. I literally never have a battle without multiple fights ending in tied dice rolls that are decided by fight value. Its a very underrated stat (like courage often is for beginners), if you need to hold a position, be it for formation or objective a high fight value is HUGE. It can be the difference between victory and defeat
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sat May 18, 2013 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
Fight value and attacks are the most important stats, they mean you win more fights, and kill more models.
Author:  CrimsonStar [ Sat May 18, 2013 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
Thanks for the clarifications. Along those lines, wouldn't it make sense for a model with a sword or dagger to always use the Special Strike of Feint? Outside of halving his Fight value (which would only come into play in a tie Duel roll), he's guaranteed a re-roll on 1's, unless there's something I'm overlooking maybe?
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Sat May 18, 2013 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
It always make sense for models with a lower fight value than your opponent to feint yes. So my goblins are always feinting and my WoMT usually do aswell if they are fighting uruks. I dont tend to use it for any other models unless they have a stupidly high fight and I can lower it without having to risk loosing a dice off.
Author:  CrimsonStar [ Sat May 18, 2013 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
Makes perfect sense. Thanks to everyone for helping me out.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sat May 18, 2013 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
Yeah but if you have a higher fight value never feint unless if you have a fight value of 3 higher than your opponent, not worth the risk.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Sat May 18, 2013 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
I remember being iffy at Fight value at first, actually I'm still kind of iffy towards Fight value but I only have minimal gaming experience so what do I know. The ones though with high Fight value and high Courage are the elves and correct me if I'm wrong I heard they're the most overrated in SBG for they cost too much and are inneffective. Where as goblins are cheap and you field a lot more and play a game of numbers.

For the few games that I've played, I've come to the realisation that Strength and Defense is what should matter most for the longivity of a model and reducing the number count of the enemy force. For example Morannon orcs, even though they have mediocre F value and low C value, their Strength 4 makes a difference in comparison to other models that cost the same. So I praise them as good value for the points or am I wrong to do so? Because I never put much stock into F and C. I need to play more games.
Author:  JamesR [ Sat May 18, 2013 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
If you don't put much into courage you have not played enough lol. I have played two recent battles as evil units where I lost the battles because of courage. The first I was Harad against Elves and had the advantage and probably would have won but my Cheiftain (only remaining hero) failed his courage check and fled the field so I lost. Worse still I had another battle against the elves as Mordor. I had a Mordor Troll Cheiftain (at perfect health, might etc.) and a handful of Orcs against 3 Galadrim elves. The Troll failed his test and fled the field so I lost. Courage is HUGE!!!

Fight value is also important. I cannot tell you how many times my higher fight value has carried the day for my Dwarves (defense is obviously important, but the only guarentee you wont die is to win). Banners coupled with high fight value are the best defense. In the SBG the best defense really is a good offense, since if you win every fight you wont get killed lol.
Look at it this way, lets say you have a great Defense value so that your opponent needs a 6 to wound, thats roughly 16.6% of the time they'll wound. Now if you have equal fight value then if you tie (before you roll to see who wins the tie) you have reduced the chance of their wounding you to 8.3%. Obviously if you have the higher fight value that % chance of your opponent both winning the fight AND wounding you is cut even further. Fight value really does lengthen your survivability.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Sat May 18, 2013 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
I certainly wouldn't call elves ineffective or overrated, a well played wood elf army with Thranduil, Leggy, Rumil etc. is amongst the best in the game. I play against elves a lot and find them very tough to crack. Their high courage really comes into its own when the forces break (as they almost always do) as more often than not they are largely unaffected by breaking, it can really turn the tide against evil armies, particularly when your own army is broken and your cretinous orcs are all legging it. The real saving is grace is that elven heroes almost never fail their courage tests which automatically makes everyone else pass whilst orc captains have a disturbing tendency to leg it at the worst moment!

Like Marsbar I think Attacks is the most important stat, he who rolls most dice wins and a battle line of troops with 2 attacks (corsair reavers and feral uruk high spring to mind) will almost always overpower a battle line of troops with higher Fight, Strength or Defence.
Author:  Sacrilege83 [ Sun May 19, 2013 4:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
Great, thank you for the input guys. I'm going to try to get more games in, in this summer.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sun May 19, 2013 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
Attacks are important but without decent fight value they are wasted. I've seen Arwen kill Dalamyr thanks to her fight 6 despite only having one attack against his 3.

A good example of fight value being really important is when you break down the points cost of something like a goblin prowler.

A regular goblin costs 3 points less, and the differences between the two are the following:
Prowler has one higher fight value/shoot value
Prowler has throwing weapons (which usually cost 2-3pts)
Prowler has backstabbers rule (it's a solid enough rule to cost 1pt)

Thanks to the fact that throwing weapons usually cost 2-3pts anyway, the prolwer basically pays no cost for his extra fight value, meaning you are not wasting your extra points when against things like elves or dwarves who have higher fight, but you are getting a free point of fight against other goblins. Because of the 'horde' nature of a goblin army having more fight and practically just as many models is a huge plus.
Author:  whafrog [ Sun May 19, 2013 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
Have to chime in on the side of Fight value :) I didn't see the point either in my earlier games but eventually it becomes apparent, especially as you start using better tactics. Shielding is also an under-appreciate tactic for new players, and higher Fight works well with this.

As for elves, I think the Lothlorien/Wood elf combo, led by cheap heroes, is what makes elves still viable. I don't think High Elves are that competitive anymore. In the days of LoME, when you could take Gil-galad and 50+ elves in 700 points, the slow and steady attrition would probably mean you broke first, but eventually you'd break your enemy, and then they'd run away. Can't do that anymore...the high elf heroes are almost all too expensive, and the cheaper ones are too specialized (Gildor has no armour, Erestor has no Might, the Twins cannibalize troops...). And D6 doesn't mean much anymore. High elves need a new edge, like 2A or D7 (with the appropriate cost boost).
Author:  LordElrond [ Sun May 19, 2013 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
whafrog wrote:
High elves need a new edge, like 2A or D7 (with the appropriate cost boost).


Or a warrior hero at about 50pts ish. Like a militia captain or something...

Totally agree that fight value is very important.

The number of times I've seen Riders of Rohan lose draws with Uruks is so much that the extra fight is so much worth it. It is also satisfying to have an auto-win on a six... Unless Rumil's around...
Author:  Tezzy [ Mon May 20, 2013 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
I also agree that fight is very important, though for most cases attacks are better. LonelyKnight from TLA put out a excel sheet that checks that math for you. Having 2 attacks and less fight versus 1 attack will have you win 58% of the time. Having 3 attacks gives you 66%. Though once your opponent has more than 1 attack it becomes very hard to have above 50% chance to win.

4 attacks at lesser fight versus 2 attacks gives you a 52% to win.
8 attacks at lesser fight versus 3 attacks gives you a 50.1% to win.
And if they have 4 attacks and have higher fight, due to the high chance of ties, you can never have above 50% chance to win!

So for warriors, 2 goblins beat an elf, but when you bring in heroes, fight often reigns supreme :)
Author:  Ring_of_Gyges [ Wed May 22, 2013 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
The more dice your fights involve the more important fight is.
1 Elf beats 1 Goblin 58% of the time, nice but not amazing.

A elf with spear support and a banner beats a similarly supported goblin 66% of the time. That's much better.

Fights between heroes are also heavily influenced by fight. If you're rolling 3 - 5 dice and have Might to spend both sides can reliably force a 6 and decide the matter on fight score. Broken elves with a captain are fine, broken goblins without one aren't long for this world.
Author:  Dr Grant [ Thu May 23, 2013 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
That's the thing though, the higher fight is only important if there's a tie and if you're only rolling 1 dice you're far from guaranted to get that 6. Thus I find more attacks are more useful for battline combats.

Of course, as other have said, Fight becomes more and more important the more attacks/banners you add to the equation. Still, if 10 Feral uruks (2 Attacks) were squaring off against 10 12point elves (Higher Fight), I'd bet on the uruks every time.

That said, there's always the times when your opponent can't roll anything but a 6, the last tournament I went to 1 High Elf archer held off 4 uruks for 3 turns! Them's the breaks :roll:
Author:  whafrog [ Thu May 23, 2013 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fight Value Relevance
Dr Grant wrote:
Still, if 10 Feral uruks (2 Attacks) were squaring off against 10 12point elves (Higher Fight), I'd bet on the uruks every time.


Of course:
F5/A1 vs F4/A1 = F5 wins 58% of the time
F5/A1 vs F4/A2 = F4 wins 58% of the time, the odds swing the other way.

But I'm not sure it's a meaningful comparison, it doesn't factor in any tactics, or the use of shielding, which is what makes elves survivable. Adding the extra attack from shielding increases the odds of auto-winning with a 6 (to 30% from 17%), it suddenly becomes viable to use a shielding elf to pin 2 or 3 ferals while you gang up on others with better odds.
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