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| Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other way? https://ww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=28132 |
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| Author: | TDrik [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other way? |
I may be wrong, but don't pikes/spears have an advantage against cavalry? If they are facing the wrong way would they lose that advantage? Or have I just imagined all this? |
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| Author: | captainquark [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
I don't think so, I'm pretty sure models are considered to have a 360 degree vision range thing (I'm explaining this really badly  ) Basically, I don't think it matters what direction the mini is facing. I don't game anymore, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's it 
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| Author: | whafrog [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
Yep, imagined Spears and pikes do not have a bonus against cavalry, it's just that spears and pikes allow support, which is a bonus all its own. And directionality doesn't mean anything. |
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| Author: | Lord Hurin [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
I find it kind of weird that the direction doesn't mean anything for spears and pikes. Charging a pike wall in the side is suicide, then... Not very thematic or realistic. Ah well... |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
These fine gents beat me to it, but as I took the pics and put in the effort I'll still go into detail lol. As mentioned above all models have a 360 degree arc of sight and can turn at any time for free So there's no difference between this:  and this  Spears as stand alone units do not gain any advantage, but they may contribute an attack to a combat by being in base contact with a friendly model who is already in combat. Like this:  In this way spears can really help against cavalry as they can add an additional attack against the charging cavalry (who also have gained an extra attack as they do this when charging). However your original question asks about facing the wrong way, and that is possible, in the following picture the spear armed model is the only one who fights as the sword model can only fight if directly in contact with the enemy. So you are losing the advantage of a spear. And in effect your formation is facing the wrong way.  Hope that helps
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| Author: | TDrik [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
That really does help! (Great pics, really help) It actually made me think of another question. If a sword warrior is backed up by a pikeman and the pike side lose will they both move back? Or is the front one trapped? if they both move back, what if the sword warrior was backed up by 2 pikemen (I think that's the maximum back up right?) would all three move back or ar the front ones trapped? What if all three move back, but there is another warrior blocking them from moving back? I think I read in the rules that only one man can move out of the way. A second man cannot move out of the way to make way for the first. Do the two pikement count at this first and second men or are they officially part of the fight for the purpose of moving back when they lose? |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
You are correct that only 1 model may make way so the front model can be trapped if the formation is too deep. However making way does not require you to move the making way model directly back. |
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| Author: | TDrik [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
That's brilliant! Thanks! So the front model is really the only one deemed to be in the fight properly. The back two pikemen aren't actually int he fighrt, they are just giving the front one extra attacks? What if it's a goblin back by two urukhai? Would the extra hits be at the strength,skill,etc of the goblin or the urukhai? If aragorn won a fight against these people could he only hit the front goblin or all three? |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
Models add one attack at their strength, fight etc. So the two Uruks would add their fight and strength 4 to the combat. And yes Aragorn can only strike the model in base contact, unless otherwise stated only the model in base contact can be wounded |
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| Author: | TDrik [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
Would the two supoort models be knocked to the ground form a cavalry charge or would they just move back and only the first one be knocked down? |
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| Author: | SouthernDunedain [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
supporting models are not knocked over by cavalry charges. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
Lord Hurin wrote: I find it kind of weird that the direction doesn't mean anything for spears and pikes. Charging a pike wall in the side is suicide, then... Not very thematic or realistic. Ah well... How so? A model can only be in one fight, and a model can only support one fight in a combat turn. If you charge a pike wall from the side, you're drawing off support from the front, it's the same effect. Also, too many people look at this as a "formation" game, when it's a skirmish game. Pike walls and blocks only work in "real life" en masse, and some games represent this by assuming 1 model = 5, 10, 20, or 100 soldiers. But in SBG, it's 1:1, and formation tactics aren't meant to work the same. There's too much mobility and too few troops for them to work that way. |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
Also to add to Mr Frog's point the individual troops are highly mobile so if a horse charges said formation they could all pivot in place to face said horse. They're not going to just sit there while they're charged |
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| Author: | Hashut's Blessing [ Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
Facing doesn't come into the Hobbit SBG. (Apart from maybe the Great Beast of Gorgoroth and the Mumak.) Otherwise, it's all WotR. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Spears/pikes lose bonus against cavalry if facing other |
When considering 'weakness' of a pike block for example, if you have your models really set up as a tight block then sometimes yes, it is 'weaker' when charged from the side. You often do not see shield/sword armed troops on the side of the block so the side is often at a lower D, sometimes is weaker troop type (generic Orcs w/ spears backing up Morannon for example) and may not even be able to have spear support himself depending on how things go. But as said a few times above you really should view SBG as a fluid combat environment where people are spinning around, hopping, sidestepping, etc., in a small area (within the base size for example). If you played WotR you would have formation units instead of individual units and those very much have facing, rear and flank designations and game triggers as a result. |
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